Breeders, Dogs and the Papers - Page 1

I asked this question a week or two ago on a thread and it never got answered, then I saw it again today.

Why would a breeder keep, want back or otherwise make it impossible for the new owner to get the "Papers" for a dog?

It seems to me that a dealer/breeder asking for papers back (not the dog just the papers), keeping papers or just not making the new owners aware that papers even exist is underhanded and riddled with dishonesty. The only thing that even comes to mind here for me is you would sell a new dog with the old papers. Basically sell two "papered" dogs when only one dog was actually ever papered. It just seems dirty.

Please help me understand this practice otherwise I will just continue to believe that the breeder/dealer/s doing this are scam artists.

Asking for the papers back is in lieu of having the dog neutered or spayed.  The purpose of not being able to register offspring.  Usually because the dog isn't breed worthy.

Ive known of a couple of instances when the papers from the buyer were forged with dogs that were not actually said dog but a fake dog was then linked to the pedigree. This was prior to DNA testing. But actually could still apply today I suppose if the original dog was DNA'd before the bait and switch if you will. People always seem to think that its the breeder but Ive heard and actually dealt with my share of dirty handed buyers who thought they were owed. 

Barb

The breeder will understand that you have an attachment to the dog, and if they took back a dog with a problem they wouldn't be able to sell it for much anyway.  So they will let the person keep the dog, encourage them to have it fixed.  The owner then sends back the papers on the dog, and the breeder then either replaces the dog with another or refunds the money.  If the breeder doesn't ask for the papers back and proof of the problem.  They would get scammed all the time by people trying to get multiple papered dogs of high Pedigree.

The breeder will understand that you have an attachment to the dog, and if they took back a dog with a problem they wouldn't be able to sell it for much anyway. So they will let the person keep the dog, encourage them to have it fixed. The owner then sends back the papers on the dog, and the breeder then either replaces the dog with another or refunds the money. If the breeder doesn't ask for the papers back and proof of the problem. They would get scammed all the time by people trying to get multiple papered dogs of high Pedigree.
 

So if I understand this correctly; getting the papers back insures that the dog wouldn't be able to breed "papered" offspring which in turn could be linked back to the breeder and they wouldn't get the stigma of being guilty of breeding bad dogs.

Mainly it would be done to keep people from ruining the breed with a bunch of dogs who have known defects.  Keep people from breeding pups that will end up in shelters because someone buys a pup, it develops problems and the person can't deal with those problems so takes it and drops it off at an animal shelter.  If I buy a dog from you and then breed it I can't use your kennel name anyway so It isn't necessarily a reflection on you. but to a degree it does hurt your reputation because the dog I have which would be the parent of the new pups and would probably have your kennel name which would be a direct reflection.  So really asking for the papers back is one of those where it takes care of multiple potential problems all at one time.

I can encourage you to spay or neuter but how does a breeder force that?  They can't all they can do is encourage you to spay or neuter send proof that you did, send the papers back.  and then you get your refund or replacement pup.  But if you didn't spay or neuter at least they can't be papered which makes it not profitable.  So less likely to occur.

Are we talking about a breeder selling a dog and then renegging on handing over the dog's papers, or a breeder selling dogs on limited registration?

I only buy dogs on full registration.  My dogs, my papers, I will make breeding/spay/neuter/etc decisions.  I don't care if breeders sell limited registration, that's their right, I just don't buy from them.

Whenever we have purchased a dog in the past...I found some breeders I have dealt with unbearable.  It was much easier getting a passport, then going through their interview stage...to make sure I was or going to be a good match for their dogs.  The breeders made it fairly clear on what the expectations were for the dog I was interested in and if they believed the dog was not suitable for breeding, then I would have to agree in writing to have the dogs spayed or neutered or go elsewhere.   I have found some breeders demands out of this world ...breeding, stud rights, naming etc.  My own aunt who has breed dogs for over 40 years was very particular on who would get any of her dogs and what the owners intentions were with the dog (family pet, companion, agility, show service).  She also provided all registration paperwork and was only disappointed once or twice in all the years from buyers that breed when they should not have; but in the end, she always told me, that these type of people exist in all walks of life and all you can do is learn and move forward.

In the end, you have breeders and owners who really do care about their dogs and what happens to them...but unfortunately we hear more about the unsatisified buyer or the "bad" breeder than the satified buyer and the great breeders out there.  In the end, much like everything else, if you don't like the terms of the deal..walk away. 

Okay thanks everyone...