Sieger 2006 - lets look at the top 10 males - Page 1

I want to start a constructive discussion about the top 10 males in the working class at this years Sieger show. The opinions expressed below are just my own personal views and I look forward to hearing others opinions. Before I start I watched most of these males closely, their progeny groups where appropriate and the bitework. I view the Sieger show as a breeding platform, a breeders show and not a beauty contest. VA1 Zamp, a beautiful male of superb anatomical construction. His progeny was worthy of a Sieger his bitework ok, his performance good although he ran out of steam towards the end. VA2 Quantum, not my most favourite of males but nevertheless a good male, his bitework I believe was good(didnt see it) and his progeny super, his performance was excellent in all phases, a worthy VA2 and maybe unlucky not to go Sieger. VA3 Orbit, a very masculine dog, now fully mature. His bitework was ok, nearly failed on the outs but passed in the end. His performance was ok, nothing spectacular and at times he looked somewhat ordinary. Elevated by the judge (his breeder) to VA3 from VA4 2 years ago. Orbit had the biggest group and very impressive by numbers. I watched this group carefully, studied them and was VERY disappointed. A couple of decent males and females but not enough good ones for a group of this size, definately not good enough to go up in the VA ranks, I really hope it is better next year. VA4 Pakros, a super male and great show dog, bitework was good, performance good, progeny good but disappointing in numbers, a worthy VA none the less. VA5 Dux, again not another great favourite of mine, found him disappointing and his progeny. VA6 Quenn, a super masculine male of correct size. Super bitework and an excellent group, somewhat small but good in quality, I believe he only had 4 months at stud to present a group so a great effort, I believe he will make a big impact on the breed. His performance in the big ring was ok, have seen him look better would like to see him go much higher in ranking next year. VA7 Odin, nice dog, maybe somewhat deep, not old enough to present progeny, bitework good, his overall performance in the big ring disappointed and I was suprised he held his position. VA8 Vegas, an outstanding male, not old enough for a progeny group, bitework good, presented well but disappointed in the off lead gaiting, should surely have lost his position here, hopefully will produce well as many think he could be a future Sieger, time will tell. V1 Bravos, must be the unluckiest dog in the class, if ever a dog deserved VA then this is the one. A super male, not without faults, a decent progeny group, large in numbers and reasonable quality, again I believe he only had 4 months of eligible studs so a good effort here, excellent bitework and excellent performance in the class. Showed himself well from start to finish and should definately have moved up 2 places on both the on lead and off lead gaiting, I wish him well and hope the judge for next year (whoever he might be) gives this male his rightful place in the VA group. V2 Janos, a very large male, missed his bitework and progeny group so unable to comment. Again showed himself well in the class. I hope you find my own personal comments interesting, would like to hear views from thers who watched theses males with interest.

Hello, I find your comment interesting but in my opinion you could distinguish their bitework a little bit more because the performence in that part is not to underrate. Regards

I guess I would ask what is the point you want to make? For people who were not there, even if we have an opinion of a dog based on a photo or saw video of the event, there is little to be gained except opinion and a stating of personal preference. I will say that Dux von Jabora, for example, is a male I think worthy of VA status or, at the very least, a higher placement than V8. But he is young and also does not have a large progeny class. Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on progeny classes, especially when one considers that few really excellent dogs, either in ability to work (temperament), or structure, come out of the hundreds of progeny for any given dog. We see over and over again how some of the "top" dogs are sold to other countries when their "value" as studs is exhausted in Germany. Many of these dogs are sold exactly because there is no magic in simply putting two dogs together to mate, even two VA dogs. In any given litter, there will likely be one or two pups who will turn out well conformation wise, but often times the most beautiful dog has no temperament to work, or vice versa. And most of the pups will end up being rather average in all ways, despite the multitude of crazy ads that state that the litter will be suitable for Schutzhund, SAR, conformation, etc. etc. etc. The bottom line is that the BSZS is a show which provides a measuring stick against which those who attend, and those of us who do not attend if we study video and photos, can measure what we have. Because of the sheer number of GSDs presented, earning a VA or top rating in any class is more meaningful there simply because of the quality and quantity of competition. When one only has the opportunity to show against 10 or fewer dogs in a given class, one should always temper their enthusiasm for the meaning of such a rating. None the less, most of us will only have the opportunity to show in classes which are very small. In the end, a clear understanding of the breed standard and of working temperament is far more important than worrying about who was or was not VA at the BSZS in my opinion.

Hello Devils Advocate, Though you are Devils advocate you seem to be taking right side. I agree with your comments. Though I have not seen the sieger show myself but from the pictures of the dogs and picture of progeny and placing won by progeny of particular VA dog I made my opinions. VA1-Zamp- Truly Deserves it. On the basis as an superbly constructed dog and superb progeny. VA2- Quantum- Unlucky.Zamp was the only competitor present in full form. Without Zamp he deserves Sieger title this year. VA3- Orbit- Lucky dog. He had his breeder as Judge. I heard he is oversize. I dont think he has many highly placed progeny. VA4- Pakros- Should have been VA3 this year. Unlucky that Orbit was entered. Good progeny. VA5- Dux- Must be there because of Mutz Pelztierfarm line. To keep the variety in choices in VA list. Progney okay. Next year shuld present better progeny or will be out. But as a individual very good dog. VA6- Quenn- Very promising superb dog. Proving to be good producer. I wished he should have been VA4. Lack of large progeny group must have kept him back. He will be in top 3 next year. VA7- Odin- He proved himself to be best by becoming SG1. But VA is too much. I feel without convincing progeny group dog should not be VA. What is the use of wasting VA placing if dog doesn't prove to be good producer. Nevertheless good dog. VA8- Vegas- Same as comments as Odin. Nevertheless good dog. certainly top 3 potential. Dogs without progeny group becoming VA are sometimes injustice to the dogs who are producing very well. V1- Bravos- Very very very Unlucky- hard to understand why not in VA list. Superb dog. Superb progeny. Better luck next year. V2- Janos- Dont know much about him. But I would have like Idol Holtkamper hof here. Idol has descent progeny also. Also Karats Yoker failed bite work otherwise I would love to see him in VA list only on the basis of his progeny. Very unlucky.

Dear Sumo, in my opinion it is not a "waste of VA placing", if a dog like Odin is Va-rated. People who are interested for example in his progency, like the judge Scheerer, have for sure examined the progency last but not least by watching at the pictures registered here. If he were not convinced about their quality of heredity he would not have place them in the VA group. Regards

Hello paddi, First of all I don't mean Odin is waste of VA rating. My point is after working ability, descent progeny group should be the measure criteria for rewarding dog with VA title. Afterall as per my knowledge VA titles are awarded so that people can choose any of these dogs for breeding and will not go only after sieger. Now if people dont know what dog is producing how can they decide which dog to follow. And suppose in future we come to know that the dog awarded is not a good producer then it is waste of VA position. Like in past this has happened that many VA dogs have no worthy progney whatsoever. For E.g. Esko Wienerau, Apoll Lacherhaus,Ajax haller osning. Pitt Tronje,Quirin Hochmoor,etc. Afterall a VA dog is expected to give back something good to the breed to carryforward.

Yes, in these points I totally agree with you.

Apoll Laacherhaus produced a VA female and many V-rated dogs. Pitt von Tronje also produced a VA female and many V-rated dogs. Not every VA is going to be Uran or Ursus. Also, not every dog's influence is immediate - you might see one of these dogs in three VA pedigrees in 2011. Sometimes the judges want to promote dogs to VA to keep needed diversity out there, to be drawn upon at a later date when dogs whose lines go back to the lesser achievers might "click" with the more dominant lines of the time. And sometimes a dog will have decent progeny that doesn't turn out to be great later on - this is an art as much as it is a science.

Hi there, it is what it is...... a show, with humans judging. There will be always a diversity in opinions, neverless it becomes irretating when the judging is not going conform with the breeding standart. For example, as Sumo mentioned the size of a male etc... I attented a couple of BSHZS, the only one i was actually thinking the judging was fair, was Mr. Orschlers last judging in 2004. In 2006 Politics were playing a tremendous role. Males without a progeny group should not be placed VA. Vegas is a outstanding dog, no doubt, but he has not proven himself to reproduce in a way a VA should. On the contrarary, dogs with good progeny group (33% in workingclass), best Schutzdienst, (4X in a row on BSHZS), the exact standart size get dumped behind dogs, that no one in his right mind would compare with each other...... But then again, humans are judging, humans make mistakes, we just have to filter the crap out ! Neverless, it was fun to be in Oberhausen, and guess what, i will attend next year again, even i have to fear to be dissappointed again ! Just my two cents, for what its worth !