This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Hundmutter on 05 May 2012 - 10:05
Bearing in mind that old saying about the only thing two Trainers can ever agree on is that a third Trainer is wrong ...
I've been puzzled to discover that in recent studies different Veterinarians can have opposing views on healthy structure:
Pat Hastings / Wendy E Wallace DVM cVA / Erin Ann Rouse "Structure In Action - the makings of a durable dog"
"Placement of front feet :
Most Breed Standards call for the front feet to face straight forward, although it doesn't seem to be an issue if the feet point slightly outward. There is no reasonable comparison between humans, who stand with their feet pointing outward, and dogs in this matter. As bipeds, humans may stand with their feet out to aid in their balance. As quadrupeds, dogs require different mechanics to create static balance. Too much turning in or out of the feet adds greater stress on all the joints in the feet, as well as on the pasterns and elbows.
Risks : All dogs competing in sports that require lateral stability or strength risk deterioration of their structural integrity if the placement of their feet is improper.
East/West Pasterns : The majority of east-west pasterns are created by puppy nutrition, not genetics. ...(They) can also be a temporary issue during growth stages, particularly the 'teenage' phase. ... This is one of the few structural issues that a young dog may outgrow.
Risks : East-West pasterns place excessive strain on the joints and the inside of the legs and can accelerate structural breakdown, potentially leading to degenerative joint disease."
OR
Dr M Christine Zinc DVM PhD "Coaching The Canine Athlete"
AS REPORTED THROUGH A THIRD PARTY, FOLLOWING A SEMINAR, but I would expect the book says much the same:
"We need to ask what our dog's 'job' is ? What is the best way they should be built to perform successfully in their field ?
We should be challenging some of the statements made about conformation. For example, there is no performance related reason why dogs need to have front facing feet. In fact dogs (and humans) are more stable when toes point outwards in the static state.
Even though a dog may have east-west feet at rest, it does not mean that they will not be pointing straight forward on the move." ...
"Upright Pasterns:
East-west posture at rest is more stable; if you breed for straight feet you can get pigeon toed movement with consequent pressure on the ulna and radius.
Structure affects function and function affects structure. Structure can also be altered by exercise, or lack of it. The importance of front structure cannot be overestimated."
So now I'm a little confused. Anybody wish to comment on which view they feel is correct, please ?
I've been puzzled to discover that in recent studies different Veterinarians can have opposing views on healthy structure:
Pat Hastings / Wendy E Wallace DVM cVA / Erin Ann Rouse "Structure In Action - the makings of a durable dog"
"Placement of front feet :
Most Breed Standards call for the front feet to face straight forward, although it doesn't seem to be an issue if the feet point slightly outward. There is no reasonable comparison between humans, who stand with their feet pointing outward, and dogs in this matter. As bipeds, humans may stand with their feet out to aid in their balance. As quadrupeds, dogs require different mechanics to create static balance. Too much turning in or out of the feet adds greater stress on all the joints in the feet, as well as on the pasterns and elbows.
Risks : All dogs competing in sports that require lateral stability or strength risk deterioration of their structural integrity if the placement of their feet is improper.
East/West Pasterns : The majority of east-west pasterns are created by puppy nutrition, not genetics. ...(They) can also be a temporary issue during growth stages, particularly the 'teenage' phase. ... This is one of the few structural issues that a young dog may outgrow.
Risks : East-West pasterns place excessive strain on the joints and the inside of the legs and can accelerate structural breakdown, potentially leading to degenerative joint disease."
OR
Dr M Christine Zinc DVM PhD "Coaching The Canine Athlete"
AS REPORTED THROUGH A THIRD PARTY, FOLLOWING A SEMINAR, but I would expect the book says much the same:
"We need to ask what our dog's 'job' is ? What is the best way they should be built to perform successfully in their field ?
We should be challenging some of the statements made about conformation. For example, there is no performance related reason why dogs need to have front facing feet. In fact dogs (and humans) are more stable when toes point outwards in the static state.
Even though a dog may have east-west feet at rest, it does not mean that they will not be pointing straight forward on the move." ...
"Upright Pasterns:
East-west posture at rest is more stable; if you breed for straight feet you can get pigeon toed movement with consequent pressure on the ulna and radius.
Structure affects function and function affects structure. Structure can also be altered by exercise, or lack of it. The importance of front structure cannot be overestimated."
So now I'm a little confused. Anybody wish to comment on which view they feel is correct, please ?
by Gigante on 05 May 2012 - 15:05
Thats interesting right there!
Seems to me they are not opposing each other in general. Just about placement at rest, and damage that can occur from trying to breed out an east west for pure show. Im not knowledgable enough to pick a view, but thanks for posting this, Im going out to examine some feet.
| Even though a dog may have east-west feet at rest, it does not mean that they will not be pointing straight forward on the move." |
Seems to me they are not opposing each other in general. Just about placement at rest, and damage that can occur from trying to breed out an east west for pure show. Im not knowledgable enough to pick a view, but thanks for posting this, Im going out to examine some feet.
by Ibrahim on 05 May 2012 - 17:05
I find myself closer to the second opinion, but while some east west feet dogs may run straight some don't and that is why judges watch for straightness going and coming. Maybe some breeders understand importance of correct fronts better than vets.
by Blitzen on 06 May 2012 - 11:05
There is no disagreement. Pat Hastings is the first lady of dog anatomy, I would go with her theory.
by PINERIDGE on 09 May 2012 - 03:05
a couple of thoughts ---
Vets are not breeders <<< quoted for truth.....
not clear whether either of these statements is GSD specific - I don't thnk so...... I see more value in the first statement - and i think the second one sounds like a "total politician" - a lot of words without really saying anything.
The Breed Standard is clear -- and not modifiable on whim ...
If you wanna know about the importance of correct structure - and the consequences of lack of same -- consult a real sheep herder --
I have seen (American line) GSDs with horrible feet/pasterns @ 10 weeks - and yes - they did get "better" -- but that doesn't justify that they are wrong to beging with - and that there are not long term consequences of continuing to breed animals with known/profound structural "defects"
Vets are not breeders - and they receive little/no training in nutrition -- they also carry multiple prejudices for certain breeds--- Question everything -- I've had the misfortune to see more than one vet that had multiple (and extremely wrong) bias against GSD's....
Vets are not breeders <<< quoted for truth.....
not clear whether either of these statements is GSD specific - I don't thnk so...... I see more value in the first statement - and i think the second one sounds like a "total politician" - a lot of words without really saying anything.
The Breed Standard is clear -- and not modifiable on whim ...
If you wanna know about the importance of correct structure - and the consequences of lack of same -- consult a real sheep herder --
I have seen (American line) GSDs with horrible feet/pasterns @ 10 weeks - and yes - they did get "better" -- but that doesn't justify that they are wrong to beging with - and that there are not long term consequences of continuing to breed animals with known/profound structural "defects"
Vets are not breeders - and they receive little/no training in nutrition -- they also carry multiple prejudices for certain breeds--- Question everything -- I've had the misfortune to see more than one vet that had multiple (and extremely wrong) bias against GSD's....
by Hundmutter on 14 May 2012 - 08:05
The first Vet, according to the book jacket, has 15+ years in canine sports medicine; "Her practice is about 90% traditional Chinese medicine and chiropractic."
And yes, the book seems very anchored in what is expected for Show Standards.
The 2nd was giving a seminar on Agility.
Neither is GSD specific.
And yes, the book seems very anchored in what is expected for Show Standards.
The 2nd was giving a seminar on Agility.
Neither is GSD specific.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top