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by Sunsilver on 27 February 2012 - 14:02
I knew nothing about this until I saw this article online this morning!
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/poles-turn-internet-circumvent-pet-breeding-laws-083849914.html
It seems no matter what laws are in place, unscrupulous people will find a way around them...
'Buy a leash....and we'll throw in a free German Shepherd puppy!
Is there anyone here from Poland who knows just what the requirements are to get a breeder's license?
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/poles-turn-internet-circumvent-pet-breeding-laws-083849914.html
It seems no matter what laws are in place, unscrupulous people will find a way around them...
'Buy a leash....and we'll throw in a free German Shepherd puppy!
Is there anyone here from Poland who knows just what the requirements are to get a breeder's license?
by Niesia on 27 February 2012 - 18:02
Another example of how easy it is to pass the law that has no bearings in reality. It's not the first and not the last in Polish law that will be totally unenforceable. The law doesn't make obtaining the license for breeding a requirement and helps regulating - it simply prohibits people from breeding dogs legally and opening a big black market... There are no many 'professional' big time breeders in Poland that are able to 'pass' the requirements... (big commercial kennel style). There was no grace period for the new law and no help in obtaining licenses by people who are already involved in dog breeding. Most of American 'small' breeders without registered kennels probably wouldn't pass it either...
The new "law" already backfired. People afraid of prosecution dumped their dogs in shelters instead of finding them homes... They estimate a 2 year backlog in 'clearing up' the amount of dogs they have in shelters resulting from passing of the new law.
Purebred and registered animals are already under individual Kennel breeding laws. Most dogs in Poland are mixed breed.
From what I understood about the law:
1. Law prohibits breeding dogs or cat for a purpose of sale except by kennels registered in social organization (whatever that is? - I couldn't find any info about it)
2. Law prohibits selling/giving away those animals in stores, on markets, internet, etc. The animal can be sold only directly from the registered kennel or an animal shelter (No hobby breeders, if you have an accidental litter - what do you do with the pups? You cannot sell them or give them away. Dump them at the shelter?)
3. Animals cannot be sold/released from the kennel unless having a permanent identification of the new owner (tattoo, microchip)
4. Animals cannot be on a tie-out cable for more than 12 hrs at the time and the cable cannot be shorter than 3 meters (who is going to meter the time?). Anybody who knows about the dog or a cat that is being in this situation is OBLIGATED to denounce the situation to the Police or County.
5. Owner cannot put down his animals.
6. Seller and Buyer not abiding the law is prosecuted by law with jail time (up to 2-3 years), monetary fine, even being prohibited to own animals for 10 years.
7. No tail or ear cropping is allowed
8. County becomes responsible for providing the care for the homeless animals, obligatory spaying/neutering, search of the owners, putting down newborn litters, providing veterinary help, etc.
9. "You cannot own or breed an animal without being able to provide him enough time and space. Example: you cannot own a hound or a hound mix if you do not own a house with a big enough yard to build him a run..." and some others...
To get the license you have to prove:
1. You have enough food, time and availability of the veterinary help for all your animals and future litters
2. You have enough accommodation for your animals and you are able to provide separated accommodation to the animals that will get sick
3. You are fully knowledgeable (?) and capable of providing the necessary care of the adult animals and litters
4. You have full financial means to provide all necessary care for all the animals and litters, etc.
Those requirements are not fully quantified...
The new "law" already backfired. People afraid of prosecution dumped their dogs in shelters instead of finding them homes... They estimate a 2 year backlog in 'clearing up' the amount of dogs they have in shelters resulting from passing of the new law.
Purebred and registered animals are already under individual Kennel breeding laws. Most dogs in Poland are mixed breed.
From what I understood about the law:
1. Law prohibits breeding dogs or cat for a purpose of sale except by kennels registered in social organization (whatever that is? - I couldn't find any info about it)
2. Law prohibits selling/giving away those animals in stores, on markets, internet, etc. The animal can be sold only directly from the registered kennel or an animal shelter (No hobby breeders, if you have an accidental litter - what do you do with the pups? You cannot sell them or give them away. Dump them at the shelter?)
3. Animals cannot be sold/released from the kennel unless having a permanent identification of the new owner (tattoo, microchip)
4. Animals cannot be on a tie-out cable for more than 12 hrs at the time and the cable cannot be shorter than 3 meters (who is going to meter the time?). Anybody who knows about the dog or a cat that is being in this situation is OBLIGATED to denounce the situation to the Police or County.
5. Owner cannot put down his animals.
6. Seller and Buyer not abiding the law is prosecuted by law with jail time (up to 2-3 years), monetary fine, even being prohibited to own animals for 10 years.
7. No tail or ear cropping is allowed
8. County becomes responsible for providing the care for the homeless animals, obligatory spaying/neutering, search of the owners, putting down newborn litters, providing veterinary help, etc.
9. "You cannot own or breed an animal without being able to provide him enough time and space. Example: you cannot own a hound or a hound mix if you do not own a house with a big enough yard to build him a run..." and some others...
To get the license you have to prove:
1. You have enough food, time and availability of the veterinary help for all your animals and future litters
2. You have enough accommodation for your animals and you are able to provide separated accommodation to the animals that will get sick
3. You are fully knowledgeable (?) and capable of providing the necessary care of the adult animals and litters
4. You have full financial means to provide all necessary care for all the animals and litters, etc.
Those requirements are not fully quantified...
by Sunsilver on 27 February 2012 - 19:02
WOw...so the law is totally toothless, then?
And just how do you prove that you didn't GIVE a puppy to someone for free? Sheesh!
I was friends with soomeone from Poland for awhile, so I know the country suffers from the sort of corruption that is typical in poor Eastern bloc countries. I can imagine just how difficult this law would be to enforce even if it DID clean up some of the ambiguities. It just leaves things wide open for those with the means to bribe officials to have their kennels pass inspection and obtain a license!
And just how do you prove that you didn't GIVE a puppy to someone for free? Sheesh!
I was friends with soomeone from Poland for awhile, so I know the country suffers from the sort of corruption that is typical in poor Eastern bloc countries. I can imagine just how difficult this law would be to enforce even if it DID clean up some of the ambiguities. It just leaves things wide open for those with the means to bribe officials to have their kennels pass inspection and obtain a license!
by Niesia on 27 February 2012 - 22:02
Sunsilver,
I think you kind of hit in on a head. Don't pass laws that sound good but are not enforceable and especially the laws that don't take into consideration actual status quo.
OK - imagine that you are a long-time owner of the great quality GSD, that you obey Kennel Club breeding practices, do everything right, invested a lot in a dog BUT - you live in a typical small Warsaw apartment with your whole family. According to new law, you do not have right conditions to keep a dog like that and forget about breeding this dog even though it's a perfect specimen... If you cannot buy yourself a house in the suburbs... (good luck with that) - then what? Now the only way for you to breed this dog is to sell it to the registered kennel and leave it there... (One moment - you cannot SELL the dog - you are not registered kennel...) So you dump it at the shelter? Do you think this is right law?
or
you own a beautiful Borzoi hound but you live in an apartment - now you cannot keep the dog because the law says that you have to own a house with a yard big enough for the outdoor run... You cannot sell or give away the dog (because only registered kennels can sell dogs now), so what do you do? Dump it at the shelter?
Speaking of giving puppy for free - you are NOT ALLOWED to BREED so you are not supposed to have any puppies or dogs to give away... Pretty simple.
Now - who will 'adopt' a stray dog as people used to do all the time? Now it's a crime. You didn't buy it from the kennel, didn't adopt it from the shelter - how will you prove that you didn't buy this dog on a black market?... 'Adopting' dogs from shelters isn't free. Shelters sell their dogs to approved homes only. In Poland dogs are traditionally unsprayed/ unneutered. I had an unsprayed female for 21 years and she never had puppies even though she was in heat twice a year... But if she had a litter by 'accident' I would find homes for those puppies. Many people would take them for free... And that's how it always worked... The BIG laws were always reserved for the "fru fru" dogs with pedigrees that nobody could afford... My girl was a puppy my mom brought from a friend who needed homes for her puppies and she's been with us all her life in a little apartment with family of 6 on the 3rd floor... What about all that village dogs that have per say 'owners' but live free lives of village dogs? What about the traditional guard dogs - they are no 'pets' per say... The traditions regarding the dog's role and conditions of dogs in Poland are so diverse - this law doesn't take it into account. In Poland dogs still are being treated as dogs (with the roles they supposed to have) not as kids that need their own bedroom before you are allow to adopt them... Most Polish kids don't have their own bedrooms, so how can we expect people to treat dogs better then their own kids...
Is the law of registering kennels gets rid of back yard breeders? I don't think so, but it sure will create large scale dog and cat farms... As only legal, registered breeders they'll sure capitalize on it...
And again - who is the right person to decide who can and who can't. Who's the right one to decide that my dog, living happily in my apartment is being 'abused' because it doesn't have an outdoor run?
I see some adjustment to this law in the future or it will be one of those many obsolete, ignored laws... The idea was honorable, full of good intentions - but everybody knows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
I think you kind of hit in on a head. Don't pass laws that sound good but are not enforceable and especially the laws that don't take into consideration actual status quo.
OK - imagine that you are a long-time owner of the great quality GSD, that you obey Kennel Club breeding practices, do everything right, invested a lot in a dog BUT - you live in a typical small Warsaw apartment with your whole family. According to new law, you do not have right conditions to keep a dog like that and forget about breeding this dog even though it's a perfect specimen... If you cannot buy yourself a house in the suburbs... (good luck with that) - then what? Now the only way for you to breed this dog is to sell it to the registered kennel and leave it there... (One moment - you cannot SELL the dog - you are not registered kennel...) So you dump it at the shelter? Do you think this is right law?
or
you own a beautiful Borzoi hound but you live in an apartment - now you cannot keep the dog because the law says that you have to own a house with a yard big enough for the outdoor run... You cannot sell or give away the dog (because only registered kennels can sell dogs now), so what do you do? Dump it at the shelter?
Speaking of giving puppy for free - you are NOT ALLOWED to BREED so you are not supposed to have any puppies or dogs to give away... Pretty simple.
Now - who will 'adopt' a stray dog as people used to do all the time? Now it's a crime. You didn't buy it from the kennel, didn't adopt it from the shelter - how will you prove that you didn't buy this dog on a black market?... 'Adopting' dogs from shelters isn't free. Shelters sell their dogs to approved homes only. In Poland dogs are traditionally unsprayed/ unneutered. I had an unsprayed female for 21 years and she never had puppies even though she was in heat twice a year... But if she had a litter by 'accident' I would find homes for those puppies. Many people would take them for free... And that's how it always worked... The BIG laws were always reserved for the "fru fru" dogs with pedigrees that nobody could afford... My girl was a puppy my mom brought from a friend who needed homes for her puppies and she's been with us all her life in a little apartment with family of 6 on the 3rd floor... What about all that village dogs that have per say 'owners' but live free lives of village dogs? What about the traditional guard dogs - they are no 'pets' per say... The traditions regarding the dog's role and conditions of dogs in Poland are so diverse - this law doesn't take it into account. In Poland dogs still are being treated as dogs (with the roles they supposed to have) not as kids that need their own bedroom before you are allow to adopt them... Most Polish kids don't have their own bedrooms, so how can we expect people to treat dogs better then their own kids...
Is the law of registering kennels gets rid of back yard breeders? I don't think so, but it sure will create large scale dog and cat farms... As only legal, registered breeders they'll sure capitalize on it...
And again - who is the right person to decide who can and who can't. Who's the right one to decide that my dog, living happily in my apartment is being 'abused' because it doesn't have an outdoor run?
I see some adjustment to this law in the future or it will be one of those many obsolete, ignored laws... The idea was honorable, full of good intentions - but everybody knows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
by kamila1412 on 29 February 2012 - 15:02
Hi Guys I'm from Poland but living in the U.K
I was back home when this law was announced on the tv.
There is so many backyard breeders in Poland you have no idea. They sell puppies outside the shops, supermarkets, ect....
Dogs from this sort of breeding are dying 3 weeks after people purchased them, Then they have no where to claim their money back as they bought it on the street.
In Poland if you want to breed your dog then the dog has to have a special breeding title (pass some silly ob and bite work test) Then judge will say if suitable or not.
I don't think people will be able to advertise dogs online if they won’t have a licence....
I will try to find out more for you guys if you like?
I was back home when this law was announced on the tv.
There is so many backyard breeders in Poland you have no idea. They sell puppies outside the shops, supermarkets, ect....
Dogs from this sort of breeding are dying 3 weeks after people purchased them, Then they have no where to claim their money back as they bought it on the street.
In Poland if you want to breed your dog then the dog has to have a special breeding title (pass some silly ob and bite work test) Then judge will say if suitable or not.
I don't think people will be able to advertise dogs online if they won’t have a licence....
I will try to find out more for you guys if you like?
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