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by Ibrahim on 23 September 2011 - 20:09
Hi,
On another recent thread and in a post from Slamdunc answering the OP, I understood that a Police Dept. buys some of their dogs without papers. I understand that these are professional people and know exactly what the're doing but:
1. What makes a Police Dept. or a private person buy a dog without papers when plenty of good dogs are there with papers?
2. If my assumption is correct then in some cases buyer does not know who the parents are, and therefore linage is not known, moreover it might be a cross between two breeds. So how can one trust such a dog on his life, with his kids at home etc when breed traits are questionable?
3. When a breeder breeds a dog without papers it implies that the breeder is not a registered one, so what makes you pay a considerable amount of money to such a breeder? Assuming where you live there are dog authorities etc
I'd love to hear what people think of owning, buying dogs without papers.
Thanks
Ibrahim
On another recent thread and in a post from Slamdunc answering the OP, I understood that a Police Dept. buys some of their dogs without papers. I understand that these are professional people and know exactly what the're doing but:
1. What makes a Police Dept. or a private person buy a dog without papers when plenty of good dogs are there with papers?
2. If my assumption is correct then in some cases buyer does not know who the parents are, and therefore linage is not known, moreover it might be a cross between two breeds. So how can one trust such a dog on his life, with his kids at home etc when breed traits are questionable?
3. When a breeder breeds a dog without papers it implies that the breeder is not a registered one, so what makes you pay a considerable amount of money to such a breeder? Assuming where you live there are dog authorities etc
I'd love to hear what people think of owning, buying dogs without papers.
Thanks
Ibrahim
by GSDguy08 on 23 September 2011 - 20:09
It has nothing to do with papers when it comes down to a police department. It's how the dog itself works. Is a dog with papers more suitable for working on the force? I certainly don't think so. They test the dogs out to see if they have what is needed to do that type of work and that's the great thing about green dogs of that age. It's not a crap shoot like it is with a puppy, and you actually know what you're getting.
by cage on 23 September 2011 - 21:09
Ibrahim,
PDs don´t usually buy these dogs from their breeders but from the vendors.They buy dogs that are started in bitework,scent work,dogs that are x-rayed.Papers are not important,dog´s qualities are important.On the other hand,these are not dogs from "unknown lines."I know a lot of people here in Slovakia have unregistered litters,or malinois-GSD crosses.Parents of the pups are x-rayed with correct hips and elbows,have high drives,good nerves.Sires of these pups are usually the best ones /if the sire doesn´t prove his qualities in his progeny,people will stop mating females to him/.The best puppies are kept,the ones that don´t show required drives and nerves are sold as pets.
Two of my friends,for example,test the females they plan to keep for breeding before they put breed survey on them.If the female proves herself in her progeny,only then they do BST.If not,she is sold to PD.No matter how fantastic worker she may be,they will not keep her for breeding.
PDs don´t usually buy these dogs from their breeders but from the vendors.They buy dogs that are started in bitework,scent work,dogs that are x-rayed.Papers are not important,dog´s qualities are important.On the other hand,these are not dogs from "unknown lines."I know a lot of people here in Slovakia have unregistered litters,or malinois-GSD crosses.Parents of the pups are x-rayed with correct hips and elbows,have high drives,good nerves.Sires of these pups are usually the best ones /if the sire doesn´t prove his qualities in his progeny,people will stop mating females to him/.The best puppies are kept,the ones that don´t show required drives and nerves are sold as pets.
Two of my friends,for example,test the females they plan to keep for breeding before they put breed survey on them.If the female proves herself in her progeny,only then they do BST.If not,she is sold to PD.No matter how fantastic worker she may be,they will not keep her for breeding.
by KellyJ on 23 September 2011 - 21:09
Our local K9 unit also buys dogs w/o papers. They only care about the working abilities and health of the dog. They could careless what his pedigree is, what he looks like, or if he is a crossed with some Mal. None of that matters to them. They are looking for the best dogs!
Looks, color, show ratings, titles, and pedigrees are the last thing on their minds. At least thats how it was explained to me. And it makes perfect sense...
Check out this site. Looks like this kennel sells dogs for police work. Notice most all of them are crosses...
http://www.policedogsk9.sk/index.php?idp=obedie
by GSDloyalty on 23 September 2011 - 21:09
Why pay that money for papers if you are not going to breed or show them. Papers mean higher prices.
by Q Man on 23 September 2011 - 22:09
It's simple...A GOOD DOG IS A GOOD DOG...period...
Have you not seen a dog with papers and a GREAT Pedigree...and the dog is pure crap...I mean I wouldn't have this dog in my kennel for nothing...
When buying dogs...You must have a particular goal in mind...Such as for Sport...or...Police Work...or maybe...Personal Protection...Pretty much...to me...you're looking at different dogs for different purposes...
You can also look at or for dogs with multiple purposes...Such as they can do Sport and/or Police Work or maybe even Personal Protection...Not all dogs can do ALL things...
Usually a dog without papers is a little bit less than one with papers...but not always...I've seen...Overseas...Very good dogs...without papers that cost more then ones with papers...Why...It's simple...The dog is good and is probably worth the money...
~Bob~
Have you not seen a dog with papers and a GREAT Pedigree...and the dog is pure crap...I mean I wouldn't have this dog in my kennel for nothing...
When buying dogs...You must have a particular goal in mind...Such as for Sport...or...Police Work...or maybe...Personal Protection...Pretty much...to me...you're looking at different dogs for different purposes...
You can also look at or for dogs with multiple purposes...Such as they can do Sport and/or Police Work or maybe even Personal Protection...Not all dogs can do ALL things...
Usually a dog without papers is a little bit less than one with papers...but not always...I've seen...Overseas...Very good dogs...without papers that cost more then ones with papers...Why...It's simple...The dog is good and is probably worth the money...
~Bob~
by Ibrahim on 23 September 2011 - 22:09
I appreciate all the answers and the information and I can say that I didn't know that in Europe there are dogs bred without papers, here in my place people breed without papers because we have no breeds authorities to make registrations and government doesn't care. But in a country like Slovakia what makes a breeder breed dogs and sell litters without papers?. You have FCI, clubs etc, so why are there pure breeds without papers ? Same applies to other European countrie and the US if this is a common thing there too.
If you cross two seperate breeds, each breed has its own traits and when you mix you are not sure what the traits of the offspring are, so why would a private person buy a cross (not Police Dept.)?
Isn't it possible that a non pure bred dog might have unpredictable temperament? Can a Police K9 handler know this by testing a green dog?
Ibrahim
If you cross two seperate breeds, each breed has its own traits and when you mix you are not sure what the traits of the offspring are, so why would a private person buy a cross (not Police Dept.)?
Isn't it possible that a non pure bred dog might have unpredictable temperament? Can a Police K9 handler know this by testing a green dog?
Ibrahim
by lovejags on 24 September 2011 - 00:09
PAPERS DO NOT MAKE THE DOG!!!
by Duderino on 24 September 2011 - 01:09
The AKC will not register a dog to a police department so when you see someone breeding a "working police K9" it is either without paperwork or it's registered to an individual.
by Slamdunc on 24 September 2011 - 05:09
Hello Ibrahim,
1. What makes a Police Dept. or a private person buy a dog without papers when plenty of good dogs are there with papers?
When we test dogs for potential K-9 prospects pedigrees are of little use since we do not breed these dogs. Usually, the dogs do not have pedigrees but have hip and elbow xrays. When I test dogs I don't favor one breed over another. We look at individual dogs and color, pedigree, etc doesn't matter. We generally test GSD's, Belgian Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. We select the best dog we find. As you know I am into pedigrees and would live to know what is behind some of our dogs. However if we were offered a dog with a great working pedigree I'd still test it and rate it the same way. The pedigree would not give the dog any extra points. The dog has to have the right temperament, drives and natural aggression. I will choose the dog that scores the highest in all of my categories.
2. If my assumption is correct then in some cases buyer does not know who the parents are, and therefore linage is not known, moreover it might be a cross between two breeds. So how can one trust such a dog on his life, with his kids at home etc when breed traits are questionable?
Some of the dogs we test may very well be crosses or have other dogs mixed in. This can seen with the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that we test. That doesn't matter to me. If you understand the breeds and the differences between a GSD and a Malinois it doesn't really change anything for us as long as the dog works. The only thing that may change is the handler's approach to training that specific dog. When we test dogs we look for universal and individual traits and the testing and selection process usually points out the strengths and weaknesses of each dog. The issue of trusting the dog is really not a factor.
3. When a breeder breeds a dog without papers it implies that the breeder is not a registered one, so what makes you pay a considerable amount of money to such a breeder? Assuming where you live there are dog authorities etc
For police K-9's we generally buy dogs form importers or vendors and not breeders. If I were buying a dog for myself from a breeder I would only look at breeders that work and title their dogs. I would never consider a breeder that sells dogs with out a pedigree for myself.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
1. What makes a Police Dept. or a private person buy a dog without papers when plenty of good dogs are there with papers?
When we test dogs for potential K-9 prospects pedigrees are of little use since we do not breed these dogs. Usually, the dogs do not have pedigrees but have hip and elbow xrays. When I test dogs I don't favor one breed over another. We look at individual dogs and color, pedigree, etc doesn't matter. We generally test GSD's, Belgian Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. We select the best dog we find. As you know I am into pedigrees and would live to know what is behind some of our dogs. However if we were offered a dog with a great working pedigree I'd still test it and rate it the same way. The pedigree would not give the dog any extra points. The dog has to have the right temperament, drives and natural aggression. I will choose the dog that scores the highest in all of my categories.
2. If my assumption is correct then in some cases buyer does not know who the parents are, and therefore linage is not known, moreover it might be a cross between two breeds. So how can one trust such a dog on his life, with his kids at home etc when breed traits are questionable?
Some of the dogs we test may very well be crosses or have other dogs mixed in. This can seen with the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that we test. That doesn't matter to me. If you understand the breeds and the differences between a GSD and a Malinois it doesn't really change anything for us as long as the dog works. The only thing that may change is the handler's approach to training that specific dog. When we test dogs we look for universal and individual traits and the testing and selection process usually points out the strengths and weaknesses of each dog. The issue of trusting the dog is really not a factor.
3. When a breeder breeds a dog without papers it implies that the breeder is not a registered one, so what makes you pay a considerable amount of money to such a breeder? Assuming where you live there are dog authorities etc
For police K-9's we generally buy dogs form importers or vendors and not breeders. If I were buying a dog for myself from a breeder I would only look at breeders that work and title their dogs. I would never consider a breeder that sells dogs with out a pedigree for myself.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
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