SAR dogs with Schutzhund Training and or Titles - Page 1

I started this thread because I think a lot of people would like to know why some K9 SAR teams do not allow "Bite Work" dogs on their teams.

When people hear that I am working Cisco in Schutzhund and SAR the usual response is.......If a dog has had bite work training or Schutzund titles they would not be allowed to work on their SAR team.

My response is........I am fortunate to be on a team that does not have that view and that we had a ShcH III titled GSD (imported by Hans) on our team until she was retired at age ten.

IMO...... I believe the K9 Wilderness SAR teams that do not allow SchH Titled dogs, on the team, are comprised of primarily Labs, Border Collies, Retrievers and Pound dogs. These teams are probably GSD apprehensive to begin with and use the "Bite Work" statement as an excuse not to allow GSD's on the team. I also believe they must have a poor understanding of dog behavior and training as a whole. (I underlined Wilderness, because that is what my experience has been in and I can not say for urban disaster type work)

I know some may say it is for insurance purposes, but again this is an excuse because most of these teams do not carry team insurance anyway and the responsibilty ultimately falls to the handler.

First of all these are two very different training and working scenarios;
 In Schutzhund the handler sends their dog to a blind or to the helper with a command word. The dog either sees the helper at all times or is sent in to the blind. Keep in mind, all of this usually takes place in a big open field or in a building, usually during day light or under lights. The dog may have a collar or agitation harness on. The only people and animals involved are the dog, handler, helper and judge(s).

The typical scenario of a wilderness SAR mission; Arrive at incident base where there are tons of people mingling and in addition, may have other dog teams mingling (on leash). Can be day or night, rain,snow or shine. Terrain is wilderness (rugged). Dogs are suited up with vest, bell, and harness (if trailing). Dogs go out with teams of people. Handler gives search command. Air scent dogs are within sight or sound range most of the time and take direction of travel from handler. Trailing dogs are of course on leash and almost never out of sight. At the end of the mission the search dogs are allowed to play with the other dogs (at least on my team).

The set-up, equipment and environment are completely different and I believe the dog can differentiate between the two scenarios.

Secondly - I'd also like to point out that, savvy K9 SAR teams put their candidate dogs through a thorough screening of temperament and drive testing before they are allowed into the teams K9 training program. Some of the temperament traits allowed in trial dogs such as nerve issues, handler aggression and dog aggression are not tolerated in SAR dogs in any form.

Now all of that being said......what if the dog finds a deranged subject who tries to beat on the dog or gets up and starts running away?
If the subject managed to get ahold of the dog to beat on him you have to think that most ANY dog would fight back, know matter what breed or training.
Or if the subject tries to run away, (this will usually kick the prey drive in) the dog has to know (through careful training) that he does not get rewarded for chasing a subject. The reward comes from the handler.

I would really like to hear other opinions and reasoning behind the "Bite Work, dogs can't be on SAR teams" line of thinking. 

I had some issues with my SAR dog when the group found out I was crosstraining in Schutzhund/protection work they were not happy.  BUT after seeing my girl work and that she was totally nonaggressive in SAR situations and the amount of control I have on her there was no problem.   It was mentioned to me about seniors or people with mental issues that might "attack" the dog or people running from the dog would set the dog off, my dog is off leash but under excellent control plus always in my sight.  We also train for the dog to bark but not go into them that closely.  A couple of people I've trained with had dogs that were hit by people that were lost the dogs just dealt with it and went back to the owner never getting aggressive. I think it depends on the training the club and people you are working with. 
Amy

My club's training director had multiple cross-trained dogs; FEMA Certs [Woodland, Urban, Water, Avalance] and SchH1-111.
Unfortunately, the group that she trained with has developed a very nasty attitude toward SchH dogs in the years since she retired from SAR [and just generally gone to shit, IME].

Clc29, we had a similar experience with our local SAR team, they would not under any circumstances accept a dog with protection or bite training unless it passed their temperment and aggression tests,which invovled a decoy using a sleeve and a decoy running at the dog full tilt arms waving and yelling excitedly.  This team was a USAR team and it was many years ago, it may have changed.  They said it was due to liability insurance requirements.  They also had a few bad experiences with poorly trained protection dogs (we had our share of junk yard attack dog mentality trainers in the area at that time) and those dogs ended up either biting another handler who made a fast move or in a couple cases, the adults that came running up to the dog in excitement because either the adult was found or in the other case, the adult's child was found.  Some of the poorly trained dogs just lit up on the other person going into protection mode, barking and lungning, and in one case a bark & hold.  We all have known badly trained protection dogs that weren't trained to properly discriminate between threats and non-threats

We attended an K9 trauma seminar that the participants had to have a minimum of a state paramedic license, and 5+ years of experience.  What many of the SAR teams attending that seminar said about German Shepherds in general was astounding and their lack knowledge of what protection/bite training a dog well involved was mindblowing.  These people also wanted the dog to be trained in such a way that any handler could work the dog, any person on the team could move the dog to a new area at any time without the handler being there.  I for one would never allow another handler to work my dog nor would I ever even dream of working another handler's dog.  They insisted that this was because a handler might be injured and the dog could still be used.  I still didn't agree with the mentality.

The current team we are help out with is allowing protection trained dogs as long as the dogs pass a temperment test and are decoy tested as well.  It is designed to tease out those dogs that can discriminate between threats and excited people.  So far only a couple have passed and a few have not.  The dogs are only worked by their handler and a few finds have involved threats against the SAR dog handler.  Because of these incidents, the supervisors of the team understand that there is always the possiblity of danger so they allow a protection dog on the team who has passed the testing and state licensed handlers to carry their handguns.

I have seen some of the testing done to the prospective dog and a couple of them really couldn't discriminate between the threat and the non-threat, I would not want to be the "found" someone that ran up to these dogs or heaven forbid, a child that wanted to hug his/her furry rescuer.  My dog passed the temperment test but he is going to be 9 years old, I just wanted to know he could and he did me proud (he was able to distiguish between the decoy who was happy to have his "child" found and the decoy who tried to grab me).

Sadly my sar group was one of the ones that would not allow it. I had some great fun with an awesome sch group and would love to have been able to experience both with my dog. Now that I have a sch3 dog I KNOW it was wrong of them to make that rule. I see no problem with a dog being able to do both worlds.

my SAR team is comprised of mainly labs and they know very little about sch protection work. I've tried to explained to them my dog views the sleeve as a modified tug toy and cares very little about the person.

I think it is more of a lack of knowledge of the sport.

Lets just hope they're competent enough to know their own field of expertise.  If I ever turn up missing, send my OWN dog to come find me.

In Germany we have many examples for cross trained dogs which are successful in both protection work and SAR:

Xander von Fidelius (SchH3/ IPO3/ RH2 ) http://www.langstockhaar-dsh.de  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=533935

Amor vom Dorneburger Bach (SchH3/ IPO3/ RH2)   http://www.hoffmannswelt.de/d_homepage_neu.htm  http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/192975/Amor-vom-Dorneburger-Bach

Alfons vom Dorneburger Bach (SchH3/ IPO3/ FH2/ RH2)   http://hundesport-nicole.npage.de/  http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/56474/Alfons-vom-Dorneburger-Bach

Easy von der Hundshardt (SchH3/ RH2)  http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/521213/Easy-von-der-Hundshardt

This list can becontinued as I know lots of others.

I don't like blanket rules in any scenario, but I also do not think it is correct to tell SAR people a sleeve is a modified tug toy and then accuse them of being the ones who don't understand SchH.  There is so much wrong with that statement...