Black and Red German Shepherd History - Page 1

So I have been thinking, where did this black and deep red craze come from? Does anyone know what lines started this color? I ask because when looking at dogs now I really look at color unintentionally but it seems everyone wants a black and red dog. People even consider the tan dogs not as attractive, well I do sometimes. Where has this brain washing come from? When I look at old pictures of the GSD I see way more tan dogs and this red color cropped up. How come the black blanket and very dark saddles never became a craze? I think that would go very well with the really red pigment. I see a lot of dogs with red color but their saddles aren't dark or solid at all or barely exist. Just wanting to hear some opinions.

Thanks

I'm told a lot of it comes from Canto von der Wienerau, who was heavily used, then linebred on, then bred back to.  Not sure how true it is, that's just the answer I got when I asked the same question. 

My female has no Canto in her bloodline and she is the color of a mahogany............

I believe she got it from  Wildsteigerland....

here is her pedigree

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=554393

but she is working - not show.................... so are you talking about show? or working? 


I am not sure what you are talking about when the black and tan not being attractive either?   There is no brain washing ....maybe you are talking on the "show" line circuit---not on the working line.........I am not familiar with that..............you gotta be talking about show cause - my male is black and tan and nobody says he is undesireable...................  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591778

I thought the OP was talking about that black and red showline look.  

I was talking about the black and red showline look. I was just curious as to where the craze came from and why more extended black on the saddle didn't accompany the deep red color?

Yogiebear,
how much are you going to pay me for every time I find Canto vd Wienerau in your dog's pedigree? How about $100? I will pm you my mailing address. It will be costly for you!!
Seriously, your dog is three quarters showlines and one quarter workingline, even linebred on showline dogs.
Wildsteiger Land and Trienzbachtal are old well known showline kennels.

gimme10minutes,
it is the old discussion of the Martin era. Walter and Hermann Martin promoted the black and red type and called dogs with too much black as having an "unfriendly look". Other old partners include Dr. Ernst Beck and a couple others. Most of them are either deceased or not breeding anymore.
The "showline look" was created first with heavy linebreeding on Quanto and Canto. Mutz was used sparingly. Marko was shunned completely. But you will find Marko and Mutz in old workingline pedigrees. Mutz mainly through his offspring Cliff vd Moehnequelle (Kimm Werseufer, Amigo Gronendamm, Lump Osterberger Land, Johnny Rheinhalle).
Afterwards, Palme was heavily linebred on. She and sister Perle were linebred 3-4 on Canto. And Palme is in every showline pedigree, either through Uran Wildsteiger Land or the Q-litter Arminius. In the early 90s, all linebreedings were done on Uran and/or the Q-litter, often 8, 10 or 12 times. So, how can anybody find a showline pedigree without Canto or Quanto is beyond my comprehension and I challenge anybody to proof it!
When you look at all these linebreedings, you will see that it was impossible not to perpetuate that type. It is really scary how the nowawdays inbreeding depression was created.

It is really scary how the nowawdays inbreeding depression was created.

Silbersee, it's nice to see someone confess that the gene pool has become too shallow. Many will hotly deny it.

Hopefully now that the Martin era has passed, new blood can be brought in to refresh it, though I'm not going to hold my breath waiting. Anything that deviates from the type established by the Martins is still not going to capture the top spots in the German shows.

There was no seperation between show and working line in Germany in the 1980's... This seperation is a creation that I believe swept from North America into European countries in the 1990's - at a time when the popularity for the breed declined (in Germany anyway) and breeders tried to breed "something new"....there were just very few dark red dogs in the 1980's in Germany, so I guess that the real trend towards this colour must have developed starting in the 1990's, as well as the trend towards massive heads and greater hip angulation. I have found no studies, but hip ratings and overall health (inherited diseases) have declined since that time and it surely has to do with limited breeding stock (for deep red) and desired features on the other.Kennels like "Haus Beck", "Trienzbachtal" and "von der Wienerau" all produced tan/black dogs at least up to the early 1990's. Just check the historical VA list and you see that it has gradually developed throughout different lines. But when you go back to the beginning you can recognize several colour trends throughout the years - from sable, to almost black, bi-colour and black/tan.
To achieve a certain colour you have to line - or inbreed within a certain breeding stock - unless you want sable.
I don't think that the deep red is a desirable colour and I'm sure you will see the trend towards this will soon decline again.

Marketing also creates a desire for a particular feature, be it colour/angulation/size etc, and SL has all 3. Show placings seal the deal. There was lot of good marketing that brought the SL to where it is now and there still is a hell of a lot it still going on to keep it there.

Many purists do not care for 'brightly' coloured dogs, and over the years have migrated away from SL to WL for the above 3 reasons.

The shame of it is, to do well in the 'show' ring, you can guarantee a non blk/red will not be placed particularly highly, regardless of it's structure/ability. Consequently few compete and when they do they are vastly outnumbered by blk/red. Consequently the popularity of the alternative colours doesn't get a chance to resurface, pretty much locking SL into black and red for the foreseeable future IMO. And yes, no matter how hotly some may dispute it, it has led to a genetic bottleneck, but they simply look the other way because the wish to continue to produce 'more of the same'. My dogs have Canto/Quanto in their lines.