SAR dogs with Schutzhund Training and or Titles - Page 2

Thank you Everyone for your thoughtful replies.

It's disappointing to hear so many teams disallowing schutzund trained dogs as part of the team.
Maybe if more GSD K9 SAR handlers tried to put the RH title on their dogs it would help change the negative mind set.

Mindhunt - That sounds like an interesting way to test a dog. Although, I am not so sure it is entirely fair to the dog to test them in that manor. Since the subject would not wear a bite sleeve or suit ever. I agree I would never allow another handler to work my dog. 

Til - I have been told that many SAR dogs in Europe must first pass the SchH 1 before being allowed to work on rescue missions. I think it's a great idea that a dog must first attain an RH title before becoming an active SAR dog and wish more teams implemented similar requirements here in the US. Thanks for the list of dogs. It is interesting to see how they are bred. The breeder that I purchased my pup from just had a litter By Uno out of a Vito vom Waldwinkle Bitch. Really nice pups.

C

For a sleeve dog or sport dog, not a protection dog, a sleeve is no more than a modified tug toy. My dog is not a personal protection dog. She goes after the sleeve and tug toys in high prey drive and treats as an intense game. You do not have to have a "Serious" dog to be successful in SCH.

VKGSD, Please explain your disagreement with my statement

I just totally disagree, what's to explain.  Protection work is serious and should be taken seriously but dogs and handlers.  We want the general public to appreciate our dogs for what they are but we tell them that SchH is like a giant game of tug?  Speak for yourself...  No wonder why SAR groups have these misconceptions and err on the side of not allowing SchH dogs.  I guess if my dogs viewed protection as a tug game I would probably not do SAR either, I can see where there could be problems with a dog going into overdrive prey mode.

A dog going in "overdrive prey" doesn't mean without control. my dog does the same bark and hold in SCH training as it does in SAR work. She is very intense in both aspects, but as I previously stated, she is looking for the sleeve, not the man. In SAR she is looking to bite the tug toy. I know there are some serious SCH dogs out there but most that I come across are just prey driven sleeve monsters.

Protection work is serious and should be taken seriously but dogs and handlers.  We want the general public to appreciate our dogs for what they are but we tell them that SchH is like a giant game of tug?

What perception are you trying to relay to the general public about a SCH trained dog? Are you one of those misguided people that are trying to convince people that SCH training produces the same dog that would be a great personal protection dog or a police dog?

This thread gets beat around every year or so.  SAR teams will decide for themselves what they wish to allow or not. You made a comment that wilderness teams do not carry insurance. WRONG!  Any SAR team that does not is dancing with the devil and the vast majority of them do!  Ours does at the tune of $2,250 per year with VFIS.  We are a small team but cannot risk having no insurance. We do child education programs which raises the need for well handled dogs.
I also take exception to your remark of "mutt dogs"  retreivers are purbred dogs - what you probably meant was teams primarily composed of soft mouthed bird type dogs. Yes, there are wilderness teams like that and you should understand that these folks will likely be a bit backed off by a pushy GSD.  I have seen this. That's why ARDA was only GSDs for many years - just to avoid these situations.  I saw a wilderness team rule out someone with a terrific FEMA dog cause they just got scared of the dog.....not all softer dogs....this dog was large, intact and really pushy - an AWESOME dog but just too much dog for them. Remember - many, many finds are made by non GSD dogs!  Don't go bashing them.
I handle a GSD - I have done schutzhund and after many years I have come around to a different perspective on things.  Dogs do generalize and they will use the B&H is non schutzhund situations....my totally clear headed male who is CGC, TDI and THE best PR/kids dog you ever want to be around, will do a B&H on the subject trying to get them to pop out his tug - and did get grabby at subjects jacket several times.  Can other non schutzhund dogs do this...yup - but his response was very recognizable from his schutzhund training.  We gave him a solid smack on the nose and for the most part that got cleared up but...that could have intimidated someone.
Dogs aren't too bright - I know...your dogs and mine are bruilliant ;-))) but they can only handle so many trained variables. If you only do HRD - then little issue but if you do air scent - say goodbye to schutzhund tracking unless you have a really ground oriented high work ethic dog. Trailing can also spill over to cause issues with schutzhund tracking. 
My point being, I have seen dogs trained in both areas start to lose a lot of performance in both.
If your dog is REALLY clear headed, I don't have issues regarding bitework but - the dog must not be at ALL sharp and the helper work must be REALLY well done!  If you should end up in court over a bite.....schutzhund training will affect your private insurance no matter if you do SAR or not and will cause issues for your team should they be sued.
Schutzhund trained dog s/b under better control in a threatening situation - I agree with this but folks do need to be mindful of the potential conflict in a courtroom.  Jurries will have a field day with you.

So, while I used not to have any issued with cross training.....I do now but it has far less to do with 'bites' as it does with a solidly trained dog.  FEMA dogs are a bit different as they do a B&H at the subject anyway.

Alex Whitelock
VSAK9

Alex that makes perfect sense, I agree that a clear headed dog that does protection work from the right "place" in their mind and is not a low threshold dog should not have issues doing SAR.  Though I will disagree about the b&h. I think various dogs can perform the same behavior from totally different "places" in their head, so for many dogs a b&h is NOT the same as barking to indicate.  Also I have seen high prey dogs to exactly as you describe with zero SchH or b&h training....SAR or SchH it depends on the dog, the type of training itself does not dictate how the dog works, that is genetic.  My dog also can bark and do a fake b&h for his toy but that's not the same as how he works in protection.  He is a vocal dog so if we had done some for of SAR I would likely use the barking as his indication, but all barking is not equal.  A prey dog may always bark out of prey, but a dog with prey and defense will bark for a toy/indicate for prey but work in protection in defense.  Anyway, a while back I was interested in joining a SAR team (this was before I had my dogs).  The commitment to do both SAR and SchH and do them properly and really well is for me unrealistic, not just b/c of dogs but also I work full time and don't have the type of job where I can be called away immediately even though I'd be willing to volunteer.  I take SAR very seriously, not something that is done as a hobby or for fun for he dog.  I could see giving it a go *after* doing SchH training if the titles were the main goal as far as SchH.  The SAR team I visited had some very strict training that you had to pass before you could even think about bringing a dog to train (which I thought made sense and was very fair...the people have to have the right training, equipment, physical fitness, etc and show their commitment before the team will invest their time with a new dog).

I had a friend who had a FEMA certified SAR dog and he was protection trained.  We also went to a ScH club together.

My feeling is that SAR trained dogs should only do the following titles at a Schutzhund club:

Bh - Basic companion dog, traffic sureness
OB I,II,III - separate obedience titles
TR I,II,III - separate tracking titles
FH I,II - advanced tracking titles
AD - endurance title

I deal with FEMA on the structural evaluations side and have been on larger task forces that included FEMA trained dogs.  The way I interpret the rules and the ways I have seen them enforced by FEMA, is that the dog cannot have ever done bite work.  In fact I have the disaster search canine manual on my book shelf at work with all my other FEMA publications.  I'll have to double check if its a written rule or just one informally enforced by my FEMA region.  Maybe they made an exception for your friend, essentially with a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude.  My opinion is that the Europeans are right about the policy, the dogs should have done some Schutzhund titles in order to meet the minimum entry requirement, but in my experience its the opposite case in the USA.

However, based on the way courts and insurance behave in the USA, I agree with Vermont Lady's observations.  Basically if a victim gets nipped by an SAR dog who has a SchH1, 2 or 3 and then sues, the SAR team is going to lose big time in court.  No jury or judge is going to have an ounce of sympathy or have any sort background in Schutzhund to make a level headed judgement.  Its basically a case closed situation in favor of the person who got nipped, seriously injured or not.

Thank You everyone for your replies.

I posted this in the All Breeds section hoping to get some perspective from non GSD handlers, but so far it sounds like only GSD handlers are replying.

Vermont Lady - Alex
I never said Labs, Retrievers and Boarder Collies were Mutt Dogs. (edited the OP to hopefully clear up confusion)
That is not what I meant and I probably should have listed the term "Mutt Dogs" last in that sentence so the meaning would not get turned around or confused.
I meant that there are a lot of teams that are comprised of Labs, Retrievers, Border Collies and Mutt dogs (non-purebred/pound Dogs).
I happen to like all of those breeds of dogs and never meant to imply they are not worthy. 
Also, I do not know why some people automatically assume the term Mutt is derogatory.
There was never any bashing intended in my sentence, just stating a simple fact. 
As for the insurance, I also never said that ALL wilderness teams do not carry insurance.
But I know for a fact that there are several teams out here in the west that do not carry insurance, and yes I agree they are playing with fire by not having it.

C

Well, I do train in Schutzhund with my SAR dogs.  For my boy (certified area search & training for water HRD), we're working on his BH.  He will not be doing bite work.  Although his breeder intended to make him a protection dog, he just doesn't have the right temperament for it.

Now my 14mo female is a completely different matter, she is certified in Tracking (passed her national certification a month ago) and a big reason she passed at such an early age is her schutzhund training.  She simply loves tracking.  She's also in training for HRD.  My girl is a very serious dog with really strong drives.  One of the biggest reasons I started her in Schutzhund was to make sure I had complete control of her when she's in drive.  I wasn't getting that needed control from our regular obedience training.  

My team knows she's in training and they agree with my reasons for doing this training.  But my team's a little different because we are sponsored directly by our local Sheriff's Office and come under their liability insurance.  They basically treat us like unpaid employees and the K9's very much like their own department K9 team (the dog coverage is under that policy).

I will probably get her BH, FH and AD at the very least.  I havn't really decided about anything else.

We do have a couple of other SAR pups that are also doing Schutzhund.  Their handlers have no plans to do any bitework but they do want to work everything else.

 

Neither my team or a nearby team allows dogs having bitework training to be used as wilderness SAR dogs.

Both teams have a plenty of GSDs and the leadership of both teams have GSDs. Several of those leaders also train other dogs in bitework through Schtuzhund, Ring, AND working with the local police departments and their patrol and detection dogs. Both teams also have members who are employed police officers. So it is not a bunch of lab people scared of nasty biting Shepherds.

The consensus has been as above. Insurance [we have to pay for that out of pocket and liability insurance is our biggest team expense]. Public Perception. and the lack of asurance that, if the dog is out of sight and a victim either strikes out at it or runs, that the dog won't revert to its dogsport training and bite. You still have to test the heck out of the dogs' temperaments. Our SOs are also very supportive of NOT having bite traned dogs searching for missing people.

Yes I would not even THINK of being on a team without liability insurance. We also spend of $2000 a year with VFIS!

The other statement that air scent dogs are in sight of the handler most of the time. Yes while SCANNING, but you want a good air scent dog to take of and follow its nose when it hits scent. We have had dogs go a good half a mile away....out of earshot. Why do you think they call it a recall-refind?

I don't see an issue for a disaster dog, even a cadaver dog or an onlead trailing dog but do for an offlead wilderness dog. But, the rules are the rules and to be honest most of us don't have time to do these "other" things with our dogs.