Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 9

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by Centurian on 28 May 2018 - 20:05

Duke I agree with you . A dog that will naturally bite a person if need to is OK ... I think the issue comes down to between a dog that bites from natural propensity from good temperament vs a dog of the same that bites from unsound temperament that is a difference and a very critical difference at that . How many times I have written about , even the highest of aggression being normal or abnormal . For example some of the dogs that I had seen where they are 'biting the man ' who cannot control themselves , be controlled or have their eyes literally roll back in their head in biting ... are a detriment to themselves , to handlers and society .. Normal dogs that have natural instinct to bite can be a blessing ...

by duke1965 on 28 May 2018 - 20:05

dogs that bite from civil trigger, rather than prey, will be much easyer to control and to out in any situation, unfortunately many dont even know how to work these dogs anymore

by duke1965 on 28 May 2018 - 20:05

furthermore, people that are in GSD a little longer all know the various lines that have "full circle " agression,and will bite everything, including handler, and Im not talking about overdrive situations when taken from a bite etc.

by ValK on 28 May 2018 - 21:05

what is the world coming to

yeah, that's what used to be, but wiped out in commercial mass breeding.
albeit i don't believe in possibility to imprint artificially "seriousness". in my perception the dog's seriousness 
is innate quality, manifesting rather in dog's mental state, than in ability to bite or do other things. 
well, at least my attempt to steer the mental maturity of my last dog to be more alike my previous dogs, did 
fail miserably.

what would be the difference between that dog's behavior and the behavior of a wolf when it is eating it's kill and simultaneously being threatened by another animal . 

if we go to compare dog's behavior to the wolf, then second dog acts in manner more like wolf. wild predators are 
opportunists and upon choosing between food and fight they will choose food. in video, when competitor step back, 
second dog immediately returns to meal.
with first dog, even when person retreat and doesen't attempt to compete, dog still in task to kill competitor. that's very 
good indication that dog is acting not on primary instinct and shows very serious difference between dog and his 
wild ancestors.
as for "bloodthirstiness", well, i can't say anything without knowing dog. but i can assure you, this type may be 
considered such. it can be absolutely crazy dog or a dog, who's calm dog in normal circumstances but become sort 
of "berserk" in fight mode. two of my previous was like that and they was absolutely excellent dogs.


by Centurian on 29 May 2018 - 12:05

" absolute interesting discussion, but in the end a dog doesnot need to be trained to be more serious, prefer a dog that will bite naturally, but can be trained not to, over a dog that will not bite naturally, but might be trained to do so " written by Duke Duke I am on the same wavelength as you . In the overall diluted use of that word 'train' .. I think that word often carries the wrong connotation . I will delete the use of the word ' train' for now. The reality is that we cannot transform the dog into what it is not. Either the dog has the make up to be serious or it does not. We know this stress plays the role with the ability to undergo aggression , the ability to be interactive combatively . Being suspicious alone does not make a serious dog . The willingness to fight and persevere does. The willingness to endure pain and physical punishment in that endeavor too . This we cannot instill in the dog. When I refer to training , I don't mean make a dog what it is not,  but rather to see the potential in that dog and channel that .

 

     Serious dogs and training .. that implies that it is our responsibility to teach the dog not how , but rather when where and why to aggress. [ that is what I refer to by discussing 'training' a serious dog ] . So I want readers to understand , we cannot make a dog serious. Mentality , the brain and nervous system is governed by geneitcs. We can guide the dog that is in it's makeup ,serious . Which brings me back to a point I made for Juno .. I stated to start off the dog by giving it a chase . Chasing adds to the character of the dog. but I know some people will say , a dog that has the seriousness in him does not need this .. BUT ... How many times I write that the handler is 50% of the equation ? I did not write another main reason [ I can't write every thing , believe it or not that I think, Haha ] .The chasing helps prevent people working the dog 'defensing the dog , making the dog even think that it could ever be defeated . You will never go wrong by teaching the dog that it is empowered and in control in that fashion . Can some people start off with the dog in defense , Certainly . But if you start the dog off chasing .. you will do no wrong..never adversley impact the dog. You will do no damage to the dog-  you won't make a mistake .

 

     If you screw up royally, not knowing truly what you are doing ,  in defensing the dog and defeat that dog , then the dog will have learned that it could be defeated. With serious dogs does this always matter . NO .. But IMOp when I communicate to my dogs that are serious , they never ever ever think that they would go into combat with the possibility of being defeated or injured !  Any person or dog going into a battle knowing it could be defeated or maimed is a stupid person or animal IMOp. This is a personal , biased , subjective opinion . Duke , yes I agree what your statement.

      BTW , threatening a dog  by pressure, such that it thinks it's life is on the line , does not equate with seriousness as a trait in a dog . [ that is two different uses of the word serious].  Any time , you think that you have to do something to keep your life , that is serious- just wanted to make that  distinction with the use of that word... Maybe put better : a dog that is serious and in control from genetics as Duke points out , is qualitaively different than a dog that had to get serious because of the context to preserve itself. And that entails two entirely different types of aggression too . 

 

 

by duke1965 on 29 May 2018 - 15:05

I absolutely think that a genetic strong dog can be ruined and a lesser dog can be made "looking great " , but generally speaking, that is beside the point, if you want a serious dog, it has to be there to begin with, the well trained and titled, bark on command sport dog might not do it in the end, no matter how much effort you put in, genetics is allways your foundation to work on

will give one example, I sold a pup to a guy for SAR, calm dog, no agression whatsoever showing ever, dog was trained and titled in SAR, living in a familyhouse with kids, now at age four, someone thinks he makes a joke and attacks the owner with a plastic sledgehammer, the dog did serious damage to the guy

Now they castrated the dog and tried to "train that behaviour out " all to find out it is geneticly there and will surface when triggered, all you need to do now is control the dog and you have the best personal protection dog in the world, without any training done

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 29 May 2018 - 18:05

In regards to Centurions and Dukes last two posts about the seriousness needing to be genetically in the dog and ...using the ‘Chase’ to build confidence...

Just yesterday, something happened that proved the above to me once again.

My just turned 11 mo old, who is a very thoughtful, alert and extremely sweet young dog.... I have to use the term sweet because he is very in-tuned to our needs and is quite affectionate in the sense that he is always close to me, laying at my feet all the time, and expectantly waiting for my input as to what he should do...etc..so far no juvenile antics....And, gets along fantastically with my older female that lives in the house too. So I thought all along he is turning into a lovable softy. He is a Berger Blanc Swiss/White Swiss Shepherd so genetically a full german shepherd. They have been breed for the last few years for a softer more companion/SAR/service dog temperament than GSD’s are, supposedly. Note the supposedly.
Add: Dad is doing IPO, grand sire is IPO3 (have video) and great grand sire is IPO3 too.

Low and behold, yesterday 2 huge Great Pyrenees, both well over 120 pounds I would guess, came onto my acreage and up onto my lawn to sniff around a bit. My pup, on the other side of the house, smells something, and goes around the corner and I follow him...my heart almost stopped when I saw them about 30 yards away.

Now, I have seen and pulled apart many a vicious dog fights in my time, but, I had no desire to tackle this Ménage à Trois and feared for my pup. Great Pyrenees are fearless dogs bred for hundreds of years to protect sheep...not to herd them, but to protect and fight for them. So it was a very uneven 2 to against 1... 240 pounds against maybe 70-80 pounds.

Well...Faster than a speeding bullet, and before I could even react or catch my breath and react at least verbally, my dog took off, charged both of these dogs in the fastest gallop, head-down, spit-flying deep and low barking, l have ever seen...not stopping, not slowing down... but literally chased these two huge guys for hundreds of yards, though meadows and woods, to the edge of my property.
This took all of seconds, that is how fast they were running in full head-down  gallop! I didnt want to recall him, in fear of creating a shadow of doubt in his mind, and not wanting him to lose confidence in his mission...since it was too late anyway...and I let him go...watching with my heart in my throat.

After he boldly chased those two mountains of dogs away, he came back to the house right away. I was amazed at the transition of him...the look on his face, the posture of his body, was just awesome! He was proud! No other way to put it...he was proud of himself and he carried it well. I think this was a transforming episode in his young life. His eyes looked different. His head was held high.

Now, do I recommend doing this?
No way!
Please don’t get that idea. And don’t try this at home!
It could have ended badly. Very badly.
And perhaps some will comment that this is normal for dogs to do.
But, regardless, it impressed me and it did just what Cent was describing. It gave my guy an extreme shot of confidence.

This normally soft dog, that reacts very fast to even a small correction because he wants to do it right, is not a chickens#%t in his heart.

Another thing he has done since he was 10 weeks old....if I am in the woods with him, or on a lonely street and someone gets too close, he will stand ground with the deepest bark I have ever heard from a dog. Even makes my hair stand on end. The best barking guard dog ever, if anyone dares onto my property.

So, I also agree with Duke, I don’t think you can tell a book by its cover, until the sh$t hits the fan for real. Not sport...but for real.
 

by Juno on 29 May 2018 - 20:05

Jesse,

Your post kind of reiterated what I said about my dog when I was describing "serious" to Valk's question. He is no lunatic frothing at the mouth ready to bite type of dog, but when he feels there is a need he will display his serious side and can switch off immediately. A similar incident to what happened with your dog happened to us also - he must have been all of 6 months old and we were out before sunlight - my wife, our other dog a female who was about 8 months and all of 30lbs maybe, when 2 large dogs that were loose attacked us. I have to admit his courage and fight was amazing - he went after both of them and would not let them near anyone of us - I finally managed to chase them off. After the incident it was like nothing happened, except that he peed on several trees where the other 2 dogs were and looked at us as if to say "what's next? are we finishing this walk or hanging out here?" To this day, my wife brings it up everytime someone says he is a serious dog..


by ValK on 29 May 2018 - 20:05

i just now noticed, when discussion touches the topic of genetics of dogs in respect to their working abilities,
the breeders, who's responsible for quality of dogs they produce, usually absent.

duke, one may route good, genetically embedded traits in wrong direction but even so, this wouldn't change base
of these traits. albeit it could be conjugated with difficulties, but dog, with positive genetic traits and mentally strong
personality, can be recovered.

Juno, i guess perception of seriousness in dogs for different people are different.

by joanro on 29 May 2018 - 22:05

Vaulk, you've got the top breeder of working dogs, Duke, posting...nobody else can compare so nothing to contribute. Be happy you have the top spokesman posting with you.

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