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by Juno on 23 May 2018 - 18:05

Centurion, I value your advise and others on this forum, who have a lot more experience with dogs and training, a lot. To back up what you wrote above - when I took my dog 2 weeks ago to be evaluated by the TD at the club where I have joined - he was tested fully in prey mode to check his drives and temperament. He passed with flying colors, although the TD (I guess because he had seen it happen before and did not want me to be disappointed) did warn me that my dog - may not bite as I am used to seeing him because he was in a strange location with a decoy he had never see before. He wanted it to be more of a play session - hence he even asked if I had brought the sleeve he was used to. I had not, but my dog had zero issues with confronting the decoy and biting the sleeve with a full hard grip. He certainly made me proud and impressed all the folks there. He (the TD) did caution me that my dog was a very strong one and would require quite a bit of control during the obedience phase. I 100% agree with him, as he can be handful and at times difficult to control - a combination of my lack of experience and him being a strong dog. As mentioned earlier on this thread - both the original breeder in Denmark and the one who I purchased him from here in the US had warned me about his bloodlines and him in particular (when she was picking him out for me based on what I had requested) - that he will be a very strong dog, balanced, but high drive and will require a firm hand. Both said it was coming primarily from the dam line - especially his maternal grandfather - Astel vom Ecke (came in 16 at the 2009 BSP) who both described as a 'monster' dog who demanded respect. Also, Zeus is line bred (4,5) on Ernst vom Weinbergblick who (depending on how much he actually influences in a given breeding) tends to bring natural aggression - this last bit is based on what I have read on this forum and others - all I can say is that I see it in him. You will know a lot more about reading pedigrees based on your experience than I do. All the more reason, to have 100% control before doing too much protection work. Hope this helps.
yogidog

by yogidog on 23 May 2018 - 18:05

Last post was excellent centurion. I'm working a 17month old male with that system now and he's coming on very nice. This dog was put on hidden sleeve way to soon in his protection 7 months nearly destroyed him. So iv taken hi right back and am rebuilding his confidence and this is the way to do it. He is now turning in to a strong hard male just needed the time to mature. Just because a dog will bite does not mean he is ready there should never be a hurry to make your dog bite. Alot of dog mature way behind there drives and need to be given the time to meantly catch up. Give your dog the respect and time to grow and you won't be disappointed with the end result. A real dog should be a confident strong minded companion and protecter.

by Centurian on 23 May 2018 - 19:05

Juno
You seem to be likable man ... and respectful .
So I share what I do with my dogs .... I understand what the decoy said to you .. and I admire so far what he has been able to relate to you . think about this for yourself...

To start ..... The theme I want to express : " it doesn't matter " . I fully comprehend that with certain interaction with dogs , time of day / night , place . materials i.e texture , shape , feel certain dogs will have the bite affected and affected by different variables. What that means to me [ and perhaps you ] is that I want to have my dogs understand that the item to be bitten : " it shouldn't matter " . I teach this right away with puppies even 10 weeks old . That is to say in puppy teaching I use a variety or soft items .. many many different kinds of items , for the puppy to bite.... at any time ... an all different places . Implied with different places is different surfaces. this is no different than teaching a sit as in obedience. Yes ? We call this ' Generalization ". Many times I generalize within the initial teaching aspect of a specific lesson . Some lessons taught I teach the pure concept and then generalize as many do. In the bite I generalize from the get go ! Because I emphasize ' the bite' ,and the 'act of biting' not the material . Therefore If i make the item to be bitten an issue , then for some dogs that becomes an issue , which leads me to have to get the dog comfortable biting different things via generalization. So , the same goes to times and places. All those variables at once are never an issue . If you ever did Sch tracking.. everyone gets concerned about the wind direction the ground material , temperature... Yes they are factors But we make them issues. Not the dog.. I have plenty of deer in my yard. I never ever aw any my dogs not pick up the deer scent and follow it everywhere in my yard. They could care less about a wind dirt or gravel .. So , ' to the dog and in the learning process " it shouldn't matter ' [ for some things that is unless we make it matter ] . Understood ??

My next point to you ... the easiest dogs for me to train that have such high motivation ! [ you call this drive] . Why because thew behavior I want is already there , I simply have to communicate to the dog : when , where , . Juno OB , most of what we want in OB a dog does.. We just have to put that behavior on ' stimulus control' and teach the dog to do this in balance. A dog bite with it's mouth and it let's things go with it's mouth . A dog comes to you and a dog walks away/ goes out from you . A dog moves and a dog at times stays still. A dog sits , stands ,and lays downs . So my job is to have the dog interact with me and to communicate teach that dog that if it follows my cue / direction that this will bring him to his goal , fulfill his motivation. I teach and generalize in the process. I start by teaching all of this in my home , in all the rooms.

Two quick examples ; I teach my dog the concept of ' leave it ' in a matter of seconds or minutes. Any dog , any age : In my kitchen I sit in a chair with a dog treat in my open hand palm . I let the dog have the treat. Then again treat in hand palm . dog goes to get it and as the dog in near my hand I gently say " leave it' and if the dog does not back away I close my hand around the treat. I do this again. When I see that I can keep my palm open and the dog leaves the treat alone after 1/2 second I immediately give the dog the treat. Dog learns real fast : ' i try to take the treat , I get nothing , If I leave the treat , then I get the treat ' . then I do this with my palm /treat moving and teach the same notion. later a ball on a string. The key is not to have the dog snatch the ball until I say so. what does this have to do with anything ? Helps teach the dog : a time ti bite , a time not to bite . Follow my direction good things happen . And also , dog learns to control it's impulses. Because if it doesn't control it's impulses , then I dam well will have to later on in the protection work . This is the QT version .. but i think enough to give you an idea. So...... the Sch bit to teach the dog defensing and guarding the sleeve while it rests on the ground . There is a time to guard and go like a with vengeance to bite the sleeve. and then when my dog sees a the sleeve on the ground and I want the dog to turn off, or leave it alone.. that is what I want. What I frown upon is not simply a person not being able to control their dog , but even more so people who train their dogs and don't teach impulse control to balance this out. The KEY here in what I am writing is : notice I do not control the dog. I teach the dog how to control itself and make the appropriate choices that I want it to make WITH me. I never kill drive but rather what I do actually increases motivation NO FORCE teaching . So you folks reading this : what is the difference between a treat the dog wants to bite and eat and a sleeve or a man ? NOTHING . In the end of training /teaching - The item ...' it doesn't matter '., nor place or time.....

Juno ... something to think about

by Juno on 23 May 2018 - 19:05

Centurion - your last paragraph really peaked my interest (not that I found the rest not useful - I did). However; the last paragraph - where you talk about - "later a ball on a string. The key is not to have the dog snatch the ball until I say so. what does this have to do with anything ? Helps teach the dog : a time ti bite , a time not to bite." I am working on this with my dog - he is crazy about the ball - I have finally got him to sit and focus on the ball till I give him the "OK" command. Before that, ball came out - and watch out he is going for it - have bruises and bleeding hands, shoulder, legs, to prove it- although must say - he immediately released as soon as he realized he had actually bit my hand, or leg, and in some case my shoulder. Now he has the control not to do that - he will wait and stare intently at the ball in some cases with one foot up almost quivering, but be quick with releasing the ball as soon as you say "OK".. The problem is how do I get him to release it when I say "aus"- I am using force (i.e. choking him till he releases - and he fights with his paws by grabbing my hand to push it away)- and you are clearly saying "no force". I have even sat motionless staring into his eyes after I have given him the "aus" command to release the ball with out tugging at it - he wont even though after a while he looks away from me. So, what do you suggest I do in this case.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 23 May 2018 - 20:05

Excellent subject turn on this post!

About releasing the ball and the ‘aus’ -

Without knowing the dog or you, Juno, or the scenario of your interactions with him in your home everyday and all the time, and what you have taught him already...
....and that there are many roads to Rome...
...I will start with the following that has worked so far with all my dogs. I hope this is not too elementary, but may help some readers in similar situations:

A dog will want any item that you have.

A dog will want what you “charge” as being something desirable....even if it is only a piece of useless tissue paper.
Once you ‘charge’ it, the dog will want it.

Using this basic premise, if he doesn’t aus the ball, pretend to lose interest in the first ball once he has it. Don’t say ‘aus’, just leave it to him.

Take a second ball on string out of your pocket and play with it for a second. . He will instantly look at and want the second ball ...and at that split second when he looks at the second ball that you have.....use the “aus” just before he drops the first ball to get the new ball. He will drop it. Praise him.

Make him do something for the second ball. Make him Sit and LOOK you in the eyes. Get calm again. Then say OK and let him jump for it. Best using a short leather strap on a ball so you don’t have too much swing.

Repeat until you can lengthen the time frame of producing the second ball from your pocket, so that he doesnt know when it will come, but that it will come at one point, after he outs the first one.

Over time this will translate to all items he has in his mouth and he knows the ‘game’ will go on once he drops it.

A disclaimer - I do not do heavy bite training, but the technique may not be much different. If I’m wrong, I hope to hear from Cent and Yogi and others. There are a lot of good trainers on this board.

by Juno on 23 May 2018 - 23:05

Jesse, thanks for your input. I have tried the 2 ball technique - doing what you said and he will want both. He will pretty much do anything you tell him to do - sit, stay, down - for the 2nd ball, with the first one still in his mouth. I have the pleasure of living with a total nut case. I actually love him for that - his spirit - cant beat that, just trying to figure out how to channel it.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 24 May 2018 - 00:05

They do try our patience with every trick in the book and then some...Lol!

Do you have a word like “nope”, that tells him he is doing something wrong that you do not want?

If so, when he has the first ball in his mouth, and is waiting for the second ball....and is not dropping the first ball....and you have given him opportunity to do so...and you are still holding the second ball....simply look at him and say “nope”, tuck ball away and walk away.
Don't engage anymore.
Game over.

He may get the lesson sooner or later with consistency.

As a separate aside, not meaning you Juno,...but generally....
we have to be careful if our dogs don’t out (in other words, meaning they do not follow our commands reliably) in going forward with protection training.

We are so very liable for our pups in this litigation happy world we live in.


 

by Centurian on 24 May 2018 - 00:05

Jesse
Yes there are many roads to Rome . I do also what your wrote with some dogs of mine. For the readers , the dog always tells me what I must do.
Jesse , I wrote the last comment for two reasons. Juno , as he wrote and described the lineage may not so much have a time controlling his dog .. sooner or later the control has to be and will be put onto the dog. also What I wrote is to other readers having puppies easy to teach. I add , in what I wrote the dog has to think , the dog is not in a super aroused state therefore the learning process goes much quicker . When a dog is so high in motivation sometimes they are so centered on the ball that they are not initially thinking of the concept but rather more so of of getting the ball. Also the lesson is taught ' in calm state of mind ' of the dog. Self control goes hand in hand with calmness of mind in order to be able to control oneself. I have found the dogs work is calm , cool and collected yet at the same time can be with power , and in control type ATTITUDE. Behaviors are transferred. I always teach what I want to teach and then that can be transferred . I.e from using food , concept learned , then transferred to ball , sleeve. . I most often teach what I want outside the confines of the protection/ field. In addtion , I rehearse what I have taught at feeding time. simple , in the example I gave with the food in hand.. that is not different than holding the food bowl and placing it on nth floor for the dog to eat once it has demonstrated self control , restraint in what it has been taught. Same thing with a Sch sleeve , I will say fass and play tug , but then when I want the dog to leave it alone until I say fass , and he complies , the food bowl goes down to the floor. Again , even with the sleeve I can go with having the dog in drive [ as you sat] , interacting and fighting . biting on the sleeve , yet in a moment I can have him switch to self control , calm by demonstrating that when I tell him to leave the sleeve alone , he more than willingly and gladly will , for that is his way to his goal , which is to eat dinner. Again , no pressure , no conflict. When the teaching is mastered by the dog I can so easily transfer all this to the training field and ultimately to real life too .
Jesse , you are absolutely correct, there are many ways to communicate and teach children and dogs. But I hope this gives to you a better understanding why I wrote to Juno exactly what i chose to write ....

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 24 May 2018 - 01:05

Centurian-
I just wanted to add a post script to my last post....and saw your latest comment. I agree with all you have written. 

I was going to add to my post that if the dog does not want to out the ball..then go back to something with less value to the dog and train the out with that.

For example: sometimes at night when I take off my socks...(gross, some may think...lol) but we know most dogs like socks, ha, so I’ll ball one up and toss it to him. Keep the second one balled up so he can see it in my hand. Ask him to aus the first one, before I throw him the second one. I don't mean to equate bite training with old socks, but it helps with foundation work, too. 
This might be easier to practice than with a high value ball and when he is in drive. 

One can do this with anything and all the time during the day. Then once he is consistent with aus, graduate to the ball.

Yes, my dogs too always have to do something before they get their food from me.

My pups are never allowed to run out of the house, jump out of the car or jump into the car...until I give the ok....one dog at a time.
They know their names and follow my commands according to their names. All of this translates to the ‘official training field” too and makes everything easier. But I don’t want to sound like I’m perfect or that I inventented anything here...everything was trial and error over the years. 

Training, and this is important for many people just starting out, does not happen only during “official” training sessions, but the REAL training is every minute of the day. Every interaction with your dog is training.

I agree with Cents statement that in training the item does not matter, nor the time or circumstance...IF your training is - and it should be - all the time, during every normal activity of daily life. There is no ‘training time’ per se...training is always.

This is why a kennel can rarely, if ever, train a dog for another person.

A dog should get nothing, until he does something for it, that you ask him to do. This is not being cruel. This what dogs do.

With that rather basic rule, so much falls into place without too much effort or, forced training - forced training isn’t training in my book.

by Centurian on 24 May 2018 - 16:05

Jesse ..
You wrote

" I was going to add to my post that if the dog does not want to out the ball..then go back to something with less value to the dog and train the out with that. "

Just want to comment on that : Yes and NO ...... Depends on the dog , Yes ? [ for the readers benefit ] If the dog does not want to out the ball .... THE FIRST thing I do is to ask , WHY ? . If the tells me that he desires to possess , then I fulfill that need by giving him something that he would be motivated to posses more . The message therefore that I communicate to the dog is ; Take my direction and I will lead you to something better for us and [his] our goal . Note : I did not say I 'REWARD' the dog . I use the ' Premack Principle' and in it's use he understands [ relies , trusts etc] .. * If this ... then That * . The dog thinks the following : if he cues me [this] then I can expect that [ outcome]. In essence what I did was utilize something of greater value to us in order to communicate what we must do.

My point Jesse for the readers is that sometimes we use a lesser value as you describe but sometimes we use a much higher value. I always ask the dog and set ourselves up for success. Now the danger for me is that we talk about values that implies a reward , which has the denotation that this is primarily about the dog. This is not solely about the dog ! What I place into the dog's head is that if you take my cue/direction OUR needs are fulfilled. In that way the dog does not look always for a reward. But it is the development of the trust and the relationship that the dog will follow my cue because he learns to do with trust and with the knowing that following the cue brings us to a mutual goal. That is different than a dog looking for something for itself. Now people are going to say it is all semantics . no it is not. The thoughts feelings in the dog are different. And those that don't think so then deny this : Predatory categorized behaviors ; chasing , pouncing etc ] if not so call rewarded will extinguish ! Defensive categorized behaviors do not extinguish .. because if an animal gave up defending it would readily die. That means if we always reward non defensive behaviors then to keep the dog performing those behaviors we must continually reward , even if the reward is on an intermittent schedule. How ofter I write if you train reward , then that is what you get a dog always looking for a reward , what is in it for ME. So then , how do you get a non defensive behavior reliable and solid without ever needing to offer a reward ? So I will let you all contemplate that .... PS ... when a dog is in protection highly aroused ... and the dog's motivation is so high when it is on the bite , why should it come off the bite ... solely because you said so , yes or no ? ....

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