operant conditioning - i am a believer - Page 6

Howlk9, excellent analogy.

Some of you Guys talk the talk, Now lets here what you have done with dogs whatever that may be and this is to VKGSDS
mollyandjack,  Howik9 and hundmutter, then i will make up my own mind how much you know
Steve1

Steve I will PM you.  Hundmutter.

I did the same, though I feel that Steve1 would be better served to discuss operant conditioning with one of the many great trainers he has access to in Belgium, rather than using the Internet as a measuring stick for a theory's worth. Maybe they laugh, maybe they surprise him with something, nothing hurt by asking.

mollyandjack and hundmutter
There is no need for you to PM me about anything, I asked a question of you both on this forum not to be PM where only i know the contents I will not be looking at my mails in the near future and that is straight
 Had i approached you by PM then i can understand but i did not. just tell me what you have accomplished with your dogs then i can decide for myself? one thing i like about people whatever they have done with there animals or the lack of and that is to be honest and up front nothing else i respect that in a person, and whatever it is i will not be gloating or calling you out as you have done to me.
Regards asking the Guys over here about fancy names like Operant Condtioning or whatever, No chance i would be laughed out of the clubhouse and the first thing that would be said is what bloody Forum are you involved with, So there is certainly no chance of me making myself look a fool in front of them
Steve1

A PM is a courtesy so as to not derail a thread further with personal matters. Read it or don't, the contents of the PM are nothing hidden or secret and are known by many here.

Echoing what Molly&Jack says, nothing that hasn't been told to
others who asked;  and my main reason for using the
PM method is because my experience is very different from
yours and would take up an awful lot of room if I explained it
in a Post on open Forum.  Whether you think its valid or not,
you could at least be arsed to read it.  I think it is adequate
for the level of debates I get into on here;  please note I do not
enter into specific training or competition issues with anyone,
but I do not see why I should be unable to comment on issues
of broad principle  - such as training terminology.

Since this is going to continue ad nauseum and clutter up the thread anyway, I will provide a brief summary.

Trained horses previously for a few years, now mostly working with neurotic/fearful dogs, dogs with behavioral problems.

And to turn this back around to on topic, I wish wish wish I had learned more about operant conditioning theory, classical conditioning, basically any learning or behavioral theory back when I was training horses. I went on instinct (which luckily I had) and the experience of others (and they had loads), but I think we could have done so much more with those young animals with a clearer understanding of what they were doing and why. It really helps when you are working with multiple animals at once, some of whom you may have never even seen before, to have a strongly developed theory of behavior and learning.

Molly and Hundmutter,

you must try to understand Steve. He is living in Belgium right now, and there are the same training skills than in Germany, where I live.
Over here people don´t tend to discuss theories, they tend to train.
Our generation and the generation before learned by doing, and we learned by training dogs, a lot of dogs.
And after a while it´s easy to recognize a good handler, a good method, and a good dog.
People thought about a problem, tried something new, and hopefully had success - no theories involved.

People without our history think different - without the background of generations of dogs they want to understand behavior and training methods.
People like ... only are able to make money with workshops outside of Europe, we normally don´t care.

And after all - all the theories don´t help if you are not able to " read " a dog, something you are not able to learn out of a book.

I like a lot of theories, reading a lot, but at the end of the day it´s only you and your dog, no book involved, and that´s what Steve tried to tell you.
Never mind
Susie

Susie, I agree that ones must put hands on the dogs, and learn by doing. Also, by watching the best and keeping mouth shut ears and eyes and mind open ;-) But learning a theory does not prevent you from doing that, and I've never been afraid to learn or try something new. 

I also work mostly with pet owners and poorly bred dogs - I MUST know exactly what I am doing and why, and be able to explain it to the owner in a way they can understand and will lead to them actually DOING what I say. I think that may be the difference here too, that people in your countries are overall better trainers and don't need this so much.