Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 9

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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 15 July 2019 - 00:07

It was a good video on a push or pull topic.  I can see the dog displaying learned behavior and then as the helper applies more points of contact, the dog does what mother nature tells him…he pulls.  Soon as the pressure is off he pushes again.  All dogs do this; enough pressure and they all pull.  Herein lies the problem.  When the helper raps the dog up to tight and the dog’s instinctive behavior takes over, (pulling) the helper unwraps and the dog stops.  Your dog already shows the desire to counter his grip and his helper would have no problems teaching him that when he gets too wrapped, the way to victory is not by pulling, but by biting deeper and harder.   Stop reinforcing the pull.  Wait for the other behavior to appear and then reinforce by removing the pressure.  This training slides the threshold in the dog’s favor which he can use for other encounters where pressure creates a state of emotional change.  But in the end, all dogs will eventually pull.  Mother nature always has the last word.

 

He actually learned all of that and a helper couldn't roll him. He got so strong that no helper was able to roll this dog because he would counter in and hold them down. There is another video of a K9 handler working him on the ground and he wouldn't let him stand up. 

This was his second or third session on the suit too. He was always a dog that liked to push and be up high in the pocket. And you are right, he is the type of dog that a helper can socialize with. But he also has a different side that I kept under wraps because I didn't need it. Since he is a very clear headed dog it was easy to keep it a game. He would have no issues to bite for real though.

 

My other one, the Orlo son, yeeeah... he cannot be friends with the helper. He's a very different type of dog. Not as happy go lucky, overall a very introverted and calm dog. He takes it way too serious. He doesn't differentiate between the suit and the person. He also has a very high pain tolerance on top of that and can take an insane amount of pressure. He just takes it and I'm not putting him back on the suit because he will bite. He already came up on a helper wearing Scratchpants and pulled another helper off his feet.

With the sleeve I can keep it safe for everyone since  he can possess the sleeve.

 

by Centurian on 15 July 2019 - 01:07

Yogi , Part of me is compelled to not write anything because your post is condescending personally to me. If you knew my background , qualifications and credentials you would not have written that last commentary . For me this is a sharing of ideas no ore or less . I do not force anyone to believe or think anything . I t encourage people to think for themselves. This is not an issue of being right or wrong to me. BTW Yogi , many people on the PDB have PM'd me for advice , a number whom helped solve difficulites withn their GS all across USA . I don't need to be a teacher , but many many come to the PDB for knowledge , advice , help and so on. I was never in the dog world for money , fame .. I do not need either . I asked for the defintion of 'Aggression' not to be sassy , but to merely understand what the people , incuding your self , percieve aggression. As a matter of fact many Professionals still struggle to coin aggression : Why ? ...

Yogi for the sake of those that want my thoughts I am happy to share. I do not say anyone has to agree or disagree. This to me is not an issue of right or wrong but a sharing of ideas , for however valued or not , accepted or not , worthwhile or not. they are.In street talk lingo , I often say about others' affairs : what's it to me [ about what other people want to think or do- has nothing to do with me]. Goodness , I simply asked the forum for defintion of aggession also so we all can be taking on the same wavelegnth . I had no ulterior motive and it was not a gotch-a question. Anyway ....

Back to Why ?....
Aggression : is the Intention to behaviorally or the act behaviorally , to cause harm to another. This can be either overtly expressed or covertly expressed. Many people have trouble with aggression because it is multi-facted and multi-dimensional. Aggression has , as do genetic traits , not only has categories and subcategories but more importantly it has quantity and quality . Kinds /categories of Aggression : Social aggression [ Abrev. now [ agg. ]as species specific agg , isoated -induced agg , sensroy deprivation agg, ] , fear induced agg, dominance agg , PREDATORY** agg , defensive agg , anti-predator agg , inter -male agg, resident-intruder agg" . I am not discussing ' assertion' for that is different than aggression , related to aggression but different. . Aggression often is manifested as a reactive impulse via the autonomic nervous system /brain or it sometimes manifests as purposeful goal orenitated controlled instrumental event. Aggession can manifest itself via different modes such as : Physical , Verbal , Non -Verbal, or a combination of modes .

In my classes I did not tellpeople to ' Command the dog " . Because within the use of verbal cue , e.g. sit and ofen with a pointed finger , people had with manner of inflection anwithnthat pitch and finger pointing , they added an element of a threat. A threat - that is a communicated voice and finger pointing is and often is consrued to be an intention to do harm i.e. a warning meaning 'Sit' or else. I instructed people to talk to their dogs in everyday normal tone and pitch with normal volume. Just say sit as you normally would . That voice and finger pointing is a form of aggression . When you stare at a dog .. we all know that looking /staring at a dog is a challenge or it can signal intent t o aggress. Many behaviors or expressions of intended behavior are ' signal distancing communications' : " meaning back off or else " , that is to say they signal ' Intention'.

The video mof EB's dog bark /hold/guard. We all know a bark means different things in different situations/contexts. Yogi , I understand what you mean about seeing aggression in the eyes - that relates to what I just wrote. I was not talking about the 'kind, quality , quantity of aggression whereby EB's dog was looking to kill or seriously hurt the decoy . This is a different type of aggression . So some are alreadn thinking " there was no aggression ' ...

EB stated that she did a lot of prey work with the dog . The bark : what was the dog saying ? It was saying that I want what you have and I want to [bite] take it. That is to say the dog was GOAL ORIENTATED . So , if a person has something , french fries , and that other person says they are going to take it [ i.e. , a purpose and a goal orientation ] and attempts to take it , that person has AGGRESSED against you . I had to acknowledge BE and the decoy training because the dog exhibited very very very good impulse control[ it was highly goal oreinted and the bark communicated intention to bite and get that suit] . The dog indeed wanted that bite suite and when the dog got the green light from BE , he went to take it away , that is the suit from the decoy via biting. [ Does any one think biting someone suit or no suit is not an aggression ?]. BTW : If someone bites your hand if you tried to take a frech fry off their plate , wouldn't you think that they aggressed against you ? Did the decoy say ,here you go just have ithe suit , here take it away I give it to you ? No , not at all. After the dog was on the bite , the decoy continued to keep what was his ! He didn't even shed the suit and say here take it ! . The dog bitand bit ... and bit.. and bit hard , pushing the decoy at that . Or did I not see that in the video ? The dog perservered on and on to get what it wanted, .. the decoy did not say the dog could have the bite suite-- IMOp just like the people in the french fries example , that dog aggressed .

Predatory aggression elicited through prey behaviors : staring - the intent to capture ,stalking -the intent to capture - staring-the intent to capture , chasing- the intent to capture , the act of pouncing , the desire to possess something that is not theirs .. All signals of intent . Aggression : the intent to behaviorally or the behavioral act to cause harm to another. As I wrote above : one kind of Aggression is Predaory Aggression defined as the act or the intent to do harm to another . Taking something from someone withot that person's premission or that person giving you that something of their own fee will , is doing harm to that person which may be by nature physical , emotional , psychological .. nevertherless harm is harm . If I look at you with my eyes or a dog with the intention of backing you down and make or I do back you down , as we sometimes do , then I have agressed against you . I caused you harm min the sense I made you think , fell and do something that you otherwise would not do on your own accord or free will.

These thoughts and ideas are where my comments originate from amnd the ratio0nal as to why I commented to BE and about BE's dog the way that I did. If someone wants to see or think differently , that is enitely ok . This is not about being right or wrong but about seeing something from a point oin dealing with people as so many people in so many forms and ways , so covertly , overtly aggress others in life so cunningly ...
emoryg

by emoryg on 15 July 2019 - 03:07

EB, sounds like things are going well. By chance is your Orlo son named after your dad’s Champ?
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 15 July 2019 - 03:07

Yeah. I wanted to name him Caro (Caro vom Allerswald) but one of my best friends said Champ would fit better.

emoryg

by emoryg on 15 July 2019 - 13:07

EB, Either way, big shoes to fill.  Best of luck.  Many good police dogs came through the Caro line.  Champ Barenfang and your dad’s other dog Gildo were well represented in the states.  I probably saw more police dogs in the states through Gildo’s Asko than any other sire.  I was at a police dog seminar in Tennessee where there were several Asko sons, including my own.  Interesting how much alike they were, even had that same bark.  

I posted a link a few pages back of what an inside bicep bite looks like.  It shows the marks of the dog countering to try to stop the pressure.  The dog has put himself in a bad spot (perp’s pocket) and the suspect is able to use his position to mount an assault.  In desperation he locks on to the dog’s muzzle, ripping back his snout and forcing the dog's head back in an attempt to get his arm loose.  As the pressure mounts on the dog, he begins to counter with a deeper and harder bite until the suspect can no longer tolerate the pain and is forced to submit.  The dog would have only countered so long before trying to remove himself from the pocket and begin to pull.  Mother nature can only be held at bay, never stopped.  BTW some of your dad’s bloodlines were heavily seeded in this dog’s pedigree. 

Pushing and pulling is the topic, and to this day I only saw one dog actually physically push a suspect across the ground.   That’s something you never forget.  Ironically, I was hoping he would have grabbed the suspect’s arm since it looked like he was reaching for something under his body.  Instead he goes below the arm and grabs the perp in the waist.  The display of power and domination was never matched by any another dog I worked with or ran with as a backup officer.  He was the Asko son.

Police dogs mainly display alternative behaviors on the bite like shaking, pulling, grip-slip, growling, avoidance, etc.  Pushing goes to the wayside quickly on the real bite.   

Same dog who did the pushing, had totally different behavior on next bite.  He grabs suspect in the neck muscle between the head and shoulder and pulls him out of a ravine.  Gump's mom said it best, “…never know what you’re gonna get”. 

by ValK on 15 July 2019 - 15:07

centurian
i don't like when people makes a simple into sophisticate. aggression is just that an aggression.
different triggers, different form of responses from different dogs but bottom line is same - it's just physical manifestation of dog's displeasure to certain happenings (?)
not sure "happenings" is best term but so far it's best one comes to mind.

i wouldn't say - i trained border patrol dogs. our duty was to take care of pups 5-6 week old and to grow them and make them ready for test at age 10 months. after that the training and certification was finalized at border. advantage of such system was that was no dog, who passed the test and have been taken to border then have been returned due to some fail. full training cycle we did only with our personal dogs but they wasn't given to border.

recall from attack was mandatory discipline and also was included as part of test for suitability of dog.

perhaps to some degree you're right about narrowness of my approach. but i grown with such type of dogs and know how solid and reliable they are. and their reliability wasn't thanks to early puppyhood imprinting or training filled by artificial tweaks to fill up absence of innate traits. i just can't see any sense in widely used training of dogs for protection when majority of those dogs genetically not predisposed for such purpose. and even worse - screwing up rare today good dogs by fake protection, like how that protection seen/perceived in sport.

by Centurian on 15 July 2019 - 16:07

Valk ... I do not protest the points that you make - I fully comprehend your points and message. Many many times I agree on your point and perspective. I write that I agree with you . For years I used to say that in many sports that the word 'protection ' should not be used . The people in sport got so defensive , angry and egotisitical . I even talked to SV Judgres about this - that in Sch , the word protection , should not be used. The difficulty is in the many different uses of the word. IPO : we know there is not any , not one exercise , that there is true protection in the sense of having to protect as if the sog's or the person's life depended on it. Many of the professionals know better or other wise and distinguish between real life LE , PP , Border Patol Protection and so alled sport protection [ if you choose to call it that ]. That is why I state : ' narrow'. We have to realize , unless they change the terminolgy that really we are talkiing about two entirely seperate phenomena.

As a puppy , a true knowledgable professional has a very very very good guestimation as the potential and the innate abilities of that puppy , as early as 7 , 8 weeks. I give a few examples : a dog used for any scent discipline , I test to see how well the dog finds the source of a scent , it's peserverence to find that scent etc, In true life protection , do we look for a pup that is in some aspect independent, domineering , having a high stress level , has tenacity , yes ? We know that ONLY a pup/dog with innate behavioral genetic traits will make the cut for real protection. That is to say , although many professionals discuss imprinting , foremeost they understand the capability , the innate genetic make up , formally [ or informally ] of that pup/dog even before any training. You often seen me write that no dog should be interacted with unless the trainer understands and knows that dog/pup inside out. In short we do pup/dog selection. Although , imprinting even in a real protection dog is useful to an extent , a qualified extent. Some used to believe , and some still debate about this , but for conversations sake : if a man had a weapon , they wanted to teach the dog to go to the weapon hand. The reasoning is , if you control the weapon you control what the man can do with the weapon and the man. As I have written a dog not taught to do that : if I had a gun he would be a gonner and he didn't stop my gun . So IMOp , I do not dismiss imprinting as a way aserious protection dog can gain advantage in addtion to the use of it's natural abilities. Apple brought up a most critical point.. In law Enforcement , we better be dam careful how we use a dog , for if a dog should kill someone , by biting the jugular for instance , for a crime of petty theft ,and killed thta thief, well .. oh boy ... Again even though we know , recognize the innate behavioral traits and natural ability of a dog , imprinting may have a purpose at times . In USA , look at what happens to an officer in current day if he should accidently shoot someone and simply cause an injury . Just , if you are not aware , look at the micro scrutiny offers ae oplace under .

Dogs that are not selected for serious work / real life and death protection or have those innate traits required , usuallly do not get selected for that work . If they do we know , without any doubts that they will wash out of the program or will fail in the performance . So undertstand Valk , like many many cliche buzz words in the dog world , the word ' Protection ' is one of them is that is misconstued , diluted and an over generalized . ' Protection ' means different things to different people with different kinds of GSs. Forutnately or unfortunately there are dogs that can do sport , with people whether I or you approve or not.

by Juno on 15 July 2019 - 17:07

Referring back to Emoryg’s remarks about Gildo being in the bloodlines of the dog that left the bite mark on the bicep and several police dogs - my dog also has Gildo 6 - 7,7 and also left a nasty bruise on the bicep as he hit through the sleeve. He also tends to go high in the pocket during suite work like EB mentioned. Maybe it is the Gildo connection?

by Juno on 15 July 2019 - 17:07

Referring back to Emoryg’s remarks about Gildo being in the bloodlines of the dog that left the bite mark on the bicep and several police dogs - my dog also has Gildo 6 - 7,7 and also left a nasty bruise on the bicep as he hit through the sleeve. He also tends to go high in the pocket during suite work like EB mentioned. Maybe it is the Gildo connection?

by Centurian on 15 July 2019 - 22:07

Valk ,
I fogot to write . This is not correct about aggression being simple. I have to say tha,  so the readers know the truth . Aggression is complex. So far .. nobody , nobody,    and I am sure that there are very very expereinced people still reading this thread, but nobody has responded to my request about defining " AGGRESSION". Because what I wrote is very much a matter of fact. Aggression is muti-layered and multi-dimensional. The aggression associated with predatory behaviors are very different than those aggessive behaviors originating from defense.They are very very very different biophysiologically,  anbd   they are expresed behaviorally such that the dog is a total different mentally , emotionally ,  motivationally  in it's state of mind. I wrote many times :  " a bite is not just a bite" !   Diffefent centers / areas of the brain are activated and different neuro-transmitters are released in different kinds of aggression  . That biological response , even before the expression or act of the aggression takes place, makes the aggression in each of those situations /contexts entirely different.

I write this not to challenge you but because I respect you, as you are often right in your point of view. ... I believe that you or anyone else can research this and validate that what I write is absolutely true- if you decided to . To add , this is critical for anyone to formally or informally understand before working a dog [decoys that is ] . Valk , I spent my whole life educating myself about this . My vocations were based upon needing to understand this for whatever value that adds to the post. I apologize for not writing this in the previous post for you .


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