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by ValK on 25 May 2018 - 18:05

jessie, not to offend you but i must point where somewhat you're contradict to yourself :)


"That agenda, or those needs, must be respected for the organism to thrive...

...
... We trade our services and ‘bribe’ behaviors all the time, even with each other... and even if unconsciously. 
We do it for our family members, our kids, our spouses, our bosses. Nothing wrong with that because it is a win win."

that's an human's view on surrounding environment and rapport. do you really think dogs see the tree, the insect, 
the cat or another dog, etc. from same perspective?
sure the dogs do have own desires, preferences, emotions... but these aren't as complex as an humans. do you think 
dog in pack feel less offended when must subordinate to more stronger and smarter dog, than when must to obey to 
leader, who happens to be human?
yes, respect is important part of cooperation between owner and dog but respect must be earned by proving to dog 
that you're worthy leader, instead of becoming honorific two legged bag with tasty treats.
ofcourse i use food and other stimulating stuff with dogs too. but i use them rarely and mostly as an extra reward or 
an object absolutely a must in teaching the task. never as main triggers for dog's motivation to work with me.

 

Centurian, did i mentioned anywhere about physical enforced domination over dog?
in past i'd seen some cases where physical pressure was only the way to obtain control over dog's behavior but those 
dogs was rare and some of them eventually ended bad.
to each their own, thus its not my intention to challenge your approach and methods of training. perhaps we did gain 
own experience by dealing with different dogs in different environment for dissimilar purposes. the dogs, i grown with, 
wasn't bred to be pet or sport dogs and believe me, they were significantly differ in so many aspects from what i see now.
seeing the present stock of dogs it's easy to grasp why "soft/sparing" methods has become so widespread and popular. 

b.t.w. you didn't answer question - what reward will be sufficient enough for "bloodthirsty" dog to immediately execute "aus" :)

by Centurian on 25 May 2018 - 19:05

Val
I was addressing the aspect of bribes. Some people think automatically if one uses food , toys , , bite tugs etc that this bribes a dog. I was trying to differentiate that the alternative to those and what rests in people's mind is pure [ harsh ] compulsion. I add : What many people confuse is that positive training is motivational training and also motivational training is positive training. The fact of the matter is this is not so . teaching a child or a dog always carries with it responsibility to discipline. The difference is how one teaches and how one disciplines.

Val ... I thought I answered your question : to answer specifically the question : First let me again emphatically state that I do not train by rewards .

what reward will be sufficient enough for "bloodthirsty" dog to immediately execute "aus" :) .

My answer is : in the dogs view , another [ even better ] blood thirsty bite[ assuming the dog is normal and sound ] !! There is a difference between rewarding and fulfilling what the dog needs . If the dog tells me that it's needs, want , motivation are to "bite with a vengeance" , then I will use that in order to communicate that it is in his interest to follow my direction. Often we trained dogs that would not out , some were genetically unsound some were sound. So the dog that did not come off the decoy : the solution is to give the dog give the dog a better more satisfying bite on another second decoy . Condition this and then pair the cue to out. Build the expectation in the dog's mind that biting one person will lead to a better bite immediately on another person. Condition this so much into the dog that it becomes part of the dog. Let the dog think that it can predict another bite from another decoy/person . Another way to address this : don't feed the dog . Don't feed the dog for a few days if you have to . Have the dog bite a person , wait it out until the dog comes off the bite . Sooner or later he has to come off the bite. Immediately put the food bowl down . Done for the day . tomorrow same thing. the next day the same thing. So the dog will learn when it comes off the bite it eats his daily food. Then one day , just a split second you see the dog about to come off the bite you pair the cue 'Aus' and the food bowl goes down to eat . Next day same thing but when the food bowl goes down it has 1/10th his food ration . Give him another bite and repeat another 1/10 th . Repeat until he has his dinner. Continue conditioning. So .. we try to set up Pavlovian classical Conditioning except the dog does not hear a 'bell' rather he hears and looks forward to 'Aus" as the conditioned stimulus. The dog will learn ... so this is not Rewarding but fulfilling the dog's two greatest needs : to have a blood thirsty bite and to eat . Even the terminology as goes is : UnconditionedStimulus -> Conditioned response to that same Unconditioned Stimulus now changed to Conditioned Stimulus to a -> Condition Response. There is nothing there about Rewarding the animal '. What is there is references to Stimulus and Behavior in fulfilling a dog's needs.


Any dog that has it's genetic bent that would ever prohibits that dog not to out.. is good for only one task , total destruction and IMOp good for nothing else.. Goodness , experienced people train wild lions , elephants and tigers to perform . A dog that will not take your direction when you offer it something that it needs to survive , will never develop the relationship to work with you or for you .Domesticated animals work with and for us and by controlling their resources and fulfilling their needs benefits us both . Any dog that will not out seeks only to fulfill itself and is maybe a little less than a wild animal ... !!

yogidog

by yogidog on 25 May 2018 - 20:05

Valk to answer your question. To teach an out i will start young with a ball and my dog will out for his dinner and he will learn very quickly if I don't out i get nó dinner. What I do I teach with food. Not a treat his actual food dinner if he doesn't out I put him back and no food for the day. I take him out again and teach him out if doesn't out he goes bad to his pen and once again no dinner. Same the next day and when i say out I produce the food the same as I did the other time this time the dog out because he needs food more than a ball and message received I out and I get fed I don't and I get to keep the ball but i go hungry. No pressure on contact only a reward and a promise I will always keep both. The dog understands the rules because they don't change weather I tell him to sit if he doesn't i put him back he goes hungry i only feed from my pocket so when we do an exercise my dog understands its dinner time. I tell u now when I ask my dog to out whether a ball a sleeve a suit he will out because there is no other option. If you train a dog you will soon work out that a dog will always work to better his situation and when he does as I ask his situation becomes better immediately.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 25 May 2018 - 21:05

I can’t get the editor to work admin...trying to edit a post to no avail....keeps knocking me out of the system.

susie

by susie on 25 May 2018 - 21:05

"Respect" -
you may train a dog for years and it may not respect you -
On the other hand
You may just be present for seconds and any dog may "respect" you -

Body language, character, fairness, the ability to read a dog - endlos training won't help in case you don't have "it"

Cent, food during bitework may work ( command out ) but is contradicting anything I want to see in a dog during bitework ( "bite, out, bark and hold" ).
Not everything that "works" makes sense in case of the original sense of the training ).
And although I like and almost always use "positive training" at the end I want the dog to do what "I" want, not what the dog thinks it wants to do ( like the final recall ).
I may be old fashioned, but I am the leader, I am the one who makes the final decision, not my dog.

by Centurian on 26 May 2018 - 02:05

Susie , for the record .. I won't even wast my time replying ......
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 26 May 2018 - 04:05

“jessie, not to offend you but i must point where somewhat you're contradict to yourself :)

"That agenda, or those needs, must be respected for the organism to thrive... ...
... We trade our services and ‘bribe’ behaviors all the time, even with each other... and even if unconsciously. 
We do it for our family members, our kids, our spouses, our bosses. Nothing wrong with that because it is a win win."

that's an human's view on surrounding environment and rapport. do you really think dogs see the tree, the insect,  the cat or another dog, etc. from same perspective?

Valk-

No offence taken. I think we are talking from different pages.

My writing was perhaps misunderstood. I’ll try to clarify.
I did not mean the dog sees the tree, insect, cat...etc from the same perspective as we do. Nor am I a flowers-hearts and unicorn trainer, asking a dog to pretty please do this and that and get away with doing what he wants in the end.

What I tried to say is that each organism has its own needs and agenda that it must have to thrive.

Trees need water and sunlight, they will not thrive if that gets throttled.

On a basic level dogs need food and companionship and (for some dogs) hunting and bringing down prey, usually in pack mode (cooperation) ...all of those are needs the dog has, AND we can conveniently use them all for training. All the time.

But the dog also needs them to thrive, I mean thrive and not just survive, physically and MENTALLY.

If you force train, compulsive train...avoidance train...in the beginning stages of training especially, either with a young dog or a dog new to you...you will create from the outset a ‘fight’ of wills with the dog. A fight of wills is never positive and is not efficient.
AND it can get emotional in a negative way for both.
It takes too much energy from the dog and the trainer.
And sometimes it is a no win situation because the dog may get worse...develope other issues...the trainer may get angrier...and it can spiral out of control. It can even kill or inhibit positive parts of the dogs spirit.

“sure the dogs do have own desires, preferences, emotions... but these aren't as complex as an humans. do you think  dog in pack feel less offended when must subordinate to more stronger and smarter dog, than when must to obey to  leader, who happens to be human?”

No, I don’t think a dog will feel “offended”. I don’t think they have egos like we humans have...so they can’t feel things like being offended.

In my experiences, I am the natural leader for a dog when I deliver my promises to him over and over. Dogs have an amazing sense of fairness. That consistency will make me a worthy leader in his eyes. He knows when he is with me, good things happen to him. And that I am consistent and not emotional.

Dogs in a way are very robotic like. They will react the same way with the same trigger. We can use all that to our advantage .
They don’t think emotionally but only though results. Cause and effect. I Get this for that.

”yes, respect is important part of cooperation between owner and dog but respect must be earned by proving to dog  that you're worthy leader, instead of becoming honorific two legged bag with tasty treats.”

 

Yes, I do become a human bait bag for a while! 
Until I feel I don’t need to any more.
The reason why I carry bait with me all the time when I have a new puppy or dog, is because every single thing the pup does that I like....without words...without my commands, he will get a treat. Truly all day long.
And he gets most of his meal that way.

First thing he gets a treat for in the first seconds of our first encounter? That he looks me in the eyes - on his own free will.
Second thing? That he walks next to me - on his free will.
Third thing? That he sits by me - on his free will.

And he will get one or a handful of treats, as an occasional jack-pot, pretty much every time he does something I like for many many weeks.

All without putting words to his actions yet. They come later when the behavior is already set in the dogs mind.

In an older dog, adolescent or older ...and the dog disobeys a cue even though he KNOWS better. Then there are consequences of course.
Food goes away.
Ball goes away.
I go away.
Game stops.
For harder corrections, I have to be 110% sure that the dog knows what is expected by the cue. That he has learned it.
And only then if he decides not to do it, or to do something else...only then do I correct him.
How hard depends on the dog.
If I have any doubt that he doesn’t know what I want...I keep training till I’m 110% sure he does know.

But if I have to do corrections too often, I have to think about it and possibly go a few steps back in my training.

Baby steps...always baby steps. Sometimes forwards...and if not successful, then sometimes backwards again.

Final words...We all have different ways of training, many ways are dependent on the dogs we have had in our care and their temperaments....and even the country we live in and the society we were brought up in.

I have a friend who is from a country that had many wild dogs roaming in villages in the old eastern block...she does have a completely different idea on dogs. So it is always good to exchange information.

And, the main reason I write here is in the hopes that some of our words or ideas might help someone reading...and if it helps just one person keep a dog, solve a problem ...and / or not send him to the pound for misbehavior through bad training...I’ll be happy.

by Centurian on 26 May 2018 - 12:05

Jesse ... Ditto , ditto ,ditto ....

So , rhetorically speaking .. why would a dog choose to disobey a cue , if the dog itself through your interaction , teaching and / or through it's own innate predispositions , is lead to do a behavior YOU want it to do , when it desires to that same behavior , even more than you want it to do that behavior ? Or in another way of putting the thought: If the dog had the mental picture , motivations , predictable outcome in mind , and on it's own accord so highly desires to elicit a behavior , is that not so much better than one always having to order a dog , make a dog , do something ? IMOp if the dog want to do something that YOU want even before you ask it to , is that not so much better a situation ? BTW .. some of you reading the posts should really really pay attention to that question ....

Jesse ....Jesse , this is not entirely correct.. : cause and affect , to a degree but realize that emotions come from thoughts and thoughts create emotions ! Autonomic origin behaviors are automatic but most behaviors are not autonomic . YES , we cause emotional issues in dogs !! Many people do !! I will add to your post by stressing the fact : Dogs can harbor RESENTMENT ! - one problem to mention. One may get a dog to do something by making that do what 'I' want it to do , but believe me you will not have a dog with the most optimal ATTITUDE for the work/performance , the most optimal Relationship , nor the most overall Performance that dog could give to you . [ If you do not a wreck pit of that dog]

I have seen countless times dogs being corrected by the handler when indeed the dog was correct in what it had been taught , correct in what it had indeed learned by inadequate teaching. How many times I had to tell people that THEY taught the dog to perform the way it did : such things a s a dog forging, not staying , and so much more.

There are no such things as corrections .. how this got incorporated into dog rearing I don't know. Once a behavior has been done , it's done. either the teaching was not correct and the dog did what it thought it should do , or the dog plum refused to do what was required and that refusal requires discipline and enforcement. That is not correcting . that is enforcing ! We can't correct something that has already been done...

Jesse .... allow me to say in your writing the food , the ball go away . This should be of no difference because as I wrote better they be utilized as communication tools . In that sense ,when we have communicated and put meaning onto a cue , the fact of the matter is that it should make NO DIFFERENCE if there is a ball or food present . When we teach reward training we make those things [ food , balls ] matter .. but in TRUE MOTIVATION TRAINING ,their presence should not matter . Also a point that many people miss , the dog should get gratification in what it does [ and doing what it does with you ] .. the joy of doing / performing a behavior in and of itself can be a motivator. A blood thirsty dog .. will take satisfaction and joy in a blood thirsty bite. So sometimes I get a kick out of people that think they have to reward a dog for doing something that it should love to do ... this reminds me of parents that give their children allowances for things that they should be doing and love to do anyway in the first place !

by Juno on 26 May 2018 - 18:05

All, thanks for all your input. Hopefully this will be a productive thread for other like me. Just wanted all to know that I dont have any issues with a retrieve with my dog. He tears after the ball and comes back at full speed and sits in front of me with the ball in the mouth waiting for the second ball. He always had an issue giving up the ball. Then all of a sudden for a while I had him dropping the first ball and waiting for the second which he would bring back and wait for for the first one - and so on and so forth. Not sure what happened and how/why we clicked - this lasted for a few days and then he reverted back to his old behavior which I have not cracked yet. I must have changed something subtly which I cant seem to figure out. Other than that I have minimal control issues with him - he will come when I call him, sitz, platz, etc. Is he perfect - of course not, but he does it. I have to admit as he gets older he is turning more and more serious with strangers - not aggressive, just not friendly and stares at them - which can be unnerving for those on the receiving end - I am fine with it because he is not acting stupid just being watchful. So, he is not some crazy monster dog, he is a strong dominant dog that wants to be treated fairly and needs to be respected. As far as being bonded with my wife and I - no issues there either - he will listen to what we tell him and he is all mush with my wife.

by Centurian on 27 May 2018 - 02:05

Juno Personally I never play that two ball retrieve game bit. For some dogs by playing that game we can create problems in the retrieve.

Juno you wrote : this lasted for a few days and then he reverted back to his old behavior which I have not cracked yet. I must have changed something subtly which I cant seem to figure out .
Actually the opposite is true.. your communication is off to the dog and He is trying to problem solve. So , some dogs come back and drop the ball . For me that is a NO No because in sports that is not a behavior you want the dog to learn and be conditioned to . you want the dog to bring something back and give it to you when you say so . The reason dogs drop the ball is because he has problem solved and is anticipating the throwing of the next second ball !
Not giving the ball to you and outing . The retrieve is not to train a dog to give you something or out. A dog should know that before you ever ask him to bring something back to you .
My advice .. refrain from this until someone can teach you a more precise way to teach this retrieve to the dog - if you want to do competition and trailing that is ..

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