Filibuster: Vainglorius or Victorius? - Page 5

It never is because those people are so scared of their own shadows they have to arm themselves so not likely those same people will go after someone shooting a high caliber weapon.

Hund, 'never happens'?
Your description sounds like a cheap TV series rendition of the USA. If a civilian showed up where an active shooter is and started shooting, they'd get killed by the cops. And you thinking that some one inside the club would sneak a firearm into a 'gun free' zone is TV fantasy...I've been to places that, even twenty years ago, would do a pat down search of patrons before they were allowed entry. Nowadays, things are much more strict.
Again, cops arrived within minutes and waited THREE hours, allowing the slaughter to continue and victims to bleed out, before they punched a hole in a wall to let the shooter and victims exit.

If someone is carrying a weapon they might use it in self-defense. I say might because there are variables to consider so it isn't a guarantee that being armed is going to save your life. I would say also say that the chances an armed civilian would use his weapon to defend others, outside of his family, are slim.

You have a guy in a club armed with a semi auto rifle; the odds that someone on the outside who is carrying a handgun would enter the club to go against that to save strangers is very low. I wouldn't blame him either.

The saying that gets thrown out all the time is, "it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun." At some level there is some truth to that but, it takes a good guy who is brave and trained, or maybe a little crazy.

That's my big problem with the pro gun lobby; they push this myth that somehow owning a gun is some magic wand. It's not that simple and even trained people have shot the wrong people or themselves.

Twice during training in the military I was shot accidentally/negligently by another soldier. Luckily it was training and we were using blanks. I can imagine what a bunch of armed civilians with dreams of being SEALs in their heads would end up doing. Just think of that guy who wanted to play cop, and was allowed to, who killed a suspect because he thought he was using his Tazer when it was really his gun. He was a risk to the real cops around him who he could have shot and obviously the suspect he killed who was innocent until proven guilty.

I have never heard "gun lobby" saying gun is like magic wand.

Like San burnadino, the cops were standing outside til shooting stopped. Scotus says cops don't have obligation to protect citizens*...in that case, we need our guns for self protection. * I'll research that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653930/Cops-ordered-NOT-pursue-Orlando-gunman-massacre-Officer-says-told-wait-victims-lay-dead-dying-Mateen-fled-club-bathroom.html#comments

Notisyou. Your points have nothing to do with our natural right to protect ourselves  described  in  US constitution.  

Didn't protect any of the 49 dead. As you say, they probably did not take guns into the club. Not everyone IN a nightclub is a patron, though.

If the cops arrived instantaneously,(?), but didn't fire anything for 3 hours, then maybe that would rule out 'help' from the street. Maybe it also ruled out attempts to help. Nothing reported, so we simply don't know if anyone tried to 'assist' but was told to get out of the way. My money is on nobody trying - and that's not because they knew the LEOs would not approve.

If help was slower than instantaneous in arrival, there would have been an opportunity for someone on the street to make that Gun Lobby slogan worth more than the paper its written on. But no show, as far as we know.

Bad cop show pitch or not, you cannot deny that the occasions when that "good guy with a gun" turns up are rare as hens' teeth. Hey, I am not wishing it to happen, far from it, all guns in the USA and everywhere else could be confiscated and destroyed tomorrow for how much I care about the right to bear arms. But you can't have it both ways, you can't say "we want guns because we want to defend ourselves/families" or even "we want to be able to pick up a gun to become insurgents if we don't like what our government goes too far in doing" and still pretend that nobody gets hold of them that shouldn't, or that you can lay down some magic formula for deciding who the "good guys" are that should.

Nope,police have no obligation to protectcivilians...we are responsible for our own safety ( or not for those who dont believe in selfpreservation).

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html?referer=

 

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/supreme-court-ruling-police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-general-public/

Hund, it's not 'bad cop pitch'. Read the two links above.
As for your fantasy of someone on the street just walking in shooting up the bad guy...that's fantasy and would have been cause for the cops to shoot and kill the would be rescuer.
The cops were told not to go in. Three hours waiting...Secured the perimeter according report from a cop present...shooting finally stopped and a hole was punched in a wall, ending the shooters life and cleaning up the mess.
Owning a gun is for SELF defense, NOT to run into active shooter scenes to shoot up the place...that's fantasy.

I appreciate Noitsyou's posts on my thread. His thoughtful posts are always insightful and well written. I hope he continues, as his intelligence and courteousness with contentious subjects really is a "breath of fresh air".