Comments on her please - Page 3

Hutchins, I was agreeing with you....

Xeph, I apologize to you.  I prob never should have commented again. 

Again, I apologize !

I'm still impressed, this is the first thread I've ever read here that hasn't deteriorated to all that's wrong with the ASL and all showlines in general.  I think there would be more ASL/GSL owners willing to offer up their dogs up for critiques if the showline haters would not join in.  Maybe they haven't seen this yet LOL. 

Nothing wrong with disagreeing about dogs. It's been proven at AKC shows - give 5 licensed judges the oportunity to rate the same dog and often they come up woth 5 entirely different critiques. Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

Ibrahim, dont feel bad about your critique. You are spot on if you critique her according to the SV-FCI standard that is worldwidely recognized. The American-line Shepherd however has evolved into practical a different line with some significant differences in structure, that are wanted and judged accordingly.
The head is kept fairly small compared to the body, even the males have a more feminine head. The top of the neck is kept a bit narrow without any "loose" looking skin. The body is pronounced longer than a FCI-GSD. The shoulder blade is more layed back, bringing the upper arm up and making the upper arm look basically straight when in an ASL stack. To even the proportions and make "it look smooth/flowing to the eye" the sternum is more pertruding and the chest is deep, bringing in a curvature one could compare to a seahorse. The rear is long and actual the angulaton is normal (most SL are over angulated in the rear). The hocks however are long and slightly bend, making the hind leg look even longer. The bone structure is finer and dryer. The feet are usually flat with long toes.
If one looks closely at the hocks they have often callusses from walking on them. Thats the most critizised problem, you probably heard the word "hock walkers" before. This has evolved over time into this extreme; the reason I think is that they have to show a ground covering gait in a very very short distance. The AKC ring is very (too) small for a large gaiting breed like this. What bothers me too is, when I see about 10 males running in that iddy biddy area and then they practical run into each other at the end..... and there is nothing... its like they are not alive and their minds are numb.
I have yet to hear a direct critique from a judge like one gets at a german style show. And I have yet to see a judge that is probably less than 60 years old...lol Oh, and one more thing, the politics are probably worse than in a SV show, just more discrete.

There are some changes, but they are slow. And as with every show, its what the judges put in front, folks will go and breed to.

Elkmoor, I go at a fair number of AKC shows and I totally disagree with you assessment of the ASL dogs.

AKC only allows a few minutes per dog, no time for a written critique Some breed clubs ask for a critique at specialties where the judge records comments of each dog that placed and some general comments about each class. That is then published in the national magazine.  SV critiques are very different, not so much in the terminolgly but the fact that each judge can know the dog he is judging, its family history, and past placements before he even goes into the ring. Owners and handlers talking to the judge inside the ring is not allowed at AKC shows either since they feel that gives the appearance that they are attempting to influence the judge.  

Hock walking is not confined to ASL's, I've seen plenty of that at SV shows too and I know of more than one GSL that had those calluses removed surgically. Put a GSL inside on a hard surface and you will probably see it doesn't move a whole lot differently than an ASL dog other than their gaits generally aren't as ground covering.  Grass can hide gaiting problems. Was it Zamp that won at Crufts a few years back. Remember all the criticism here about his rear movement? Take him off the mats and put him outside in  the grass and you won't see that. Even the famous video of Dingo is filmed in high grass so there is no way to see how his hocks land. I'm not sure it would make a difference anyway. I have never seen or heard of an SV show that is held inside on mats so who knows for sure how any of them would move inside on a hard suface in a small ring?


 

The SV/FCI breeder standard is almost identical to the AKC breed standard.

Elkoor,

Thank you so much for taking the time for such a detailed explanation, I appreciate that a lot, Xeph stated clearly that there is a difference but your detailed addition made things crystal clear, and no I am not worried at all about my critique, it is very honest how I see the girl, when I offer a comment I take extra care to be fair to the subject dog and be respectful to the OP, dear Hutchins expressed his/her liking of the dog, which is again an honest opinion, Hutchins was very sweet on the words and I became worried I might have been harsh in choosing proper words or too honest in my comments, and I wouldn't like to be rude in anyway, that is why I was a bit defensive due to some conscious worry. Thank you

Hutchins,
It's easy to misconstrue what somebody says on the internet, since there is no reference point for tone or inflection generally :)  Just wanted to reiterate that I was agreeing with your statements on the previous page.

I think this is a lovly American showline bitch. It would be nice to see more like her in the AKC ring. Also, I tend to agree with EuroShepherds on her comments. 

Blitzen, I dont see anything we are disagreeing on, at least not from what you wrote. Maybe you can clarify?

For all that are interested in the american line GSD, here is a fine example that I like (when talking ASL): GCH Pine Hill’s Payday Of Hayshill (Solo)

Please google the name to his facebook site as I dont want to post pics without permission. This is currently one of the top winning GSDs in the AKC showring and rightful so. There are plenty of pics showing him stacked as well as gaiting. There is a video if one scrolls down a bit on timeline that shows him also in a natural movement, gaiting and walking. When walking he still though walks partially on his hocks.

Blitzen, I never said that one doesnt find hock walking in a german SL. There are good and bad in both showrings. Yes the AKC written standard basically is the same as the FCI standard, however its interpreted differently.

Here is my ASL (he has however some real german mixed in 6 gen back)