Training to Out - Page 2

 

 

Mr Kim said that I should be "more cognizant" of what I am saying and insinuating that  there is conflict- a dissimilar, dissonant, discrepancy of debilitating, dumb description  (just playing with words starting with "D") or inconsistency in what I am saying about "out".   This was tripped in Kim's mind (and cheered mindlessly by his fans),.. by me saying  about the training of  "out"  that it needed to be always  rewarded by another bite-"re-bite". I still insist on that as I have always had.  It is peculiar that Mr Kim  would use my post telling CLEARLY THAT LIFTING OF THE DOG  is NOT TEACHING  it to "out" as a proof on my supposed inconsistency of teaching "out". 

 lol here is a quote form somewhat confused Mt. Kim. 

 "Mr. Prager, please be more cognizant of your posts, I believe that your last comment should have been directed to this thread;

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=799117-lift-versus-out

Try and keep up with what you post and say

Thank you

Kim" 

LOL Kim ,.... I keep telling you - maybe you should actually read first  what you are criticizing. That would be a good start.   Here is what I said about lifting the dog up:

1/ lift builds bite of a dog.      

a/ by "taking away" the prey from the dog he fights and grips harder and with more intensity.  That is a training technique to increase the intensity and fullness of the grip and not teaching the dog out as some less knowledgeable trainers think.  The out is trained completely different way and it is in direct opposition to teaching the dog bite  more intensity and with harder fuller  grip.

 

Thus when I said that rewarding the dog after out with another bite- consitently stands...that is since I made abundantly clear that lifting of the dog is  not teaching the dog to "out". Thus Mr Kim's using it as an example of some inconsistency of me saying what  how to teach out is illogical and incorrect and immature and ill-adviced  and somewhat illiterate. ( just kidding and trying to have fun with relevant words starting with "i" .  :) 

 Have a nice day. 

 Prager Hans

Well since you brought it up,

I'm still waiting for example of how lift creates a better grip. or more intensity or any of the claims that you state.  The video you use to show that, clearly shows the handler commanding the dog to out (which contradicts all the above) and then when the handler reaches for the dog to perform the "lift" the dog comes off of the sleeve, avoids the handlers hands, gets very munchy in his grip, grabs the hand end of the sleeve and then goes back to a 50% full grip on the elbow. 

I don't consider any of that behavior desirable.  Then there is another command (I assume to out) then the handler "lifts" the dog, which doesn't fix the grip at all, and then he puts his shoulder under the leash to create a more powerful "lift" which causes the dog to come off of the sleeve.

SO if it's not used to out a dog, then why on the video that you provide, does he "lift" the dog to out him?

Why do we not see the dog going from his half grip to a full grip at the start of the lift if it's purpose is, " to increase the intensity and fullness of the grip "  ?

I don't see any of the alleged benefits or even a consistency in the description and the actions that were displayed. And I sure don't like the dogs behavior to the handler.  To me, this displays pure conflict between the two instead of harmony.

 

 

Good stuff Chaz I don't disagree with your training, Just different. I have also found the vocabulary of dogs to be quite large, agree they are able to understand things like inflection and tone as pointed out by Hans as well. 

No Bacon in my pockets only in my belly!! What to do!! The out is rewarded by what my puppy wanted in first place… my pants so.. bite command after the out, is the reward for the puppy. Gradually bad out, no out… no pant. In your example pants being something "bad" If I exit the house with bad pants :) on the way to town or yada yada, leave it is deployed before the bite if I catch it, and out then leave it if they catch me off guard. I want them to target and get use to biting anything they want while they are puppies. I know, terrible idea for those lucky people who take home family companion/protection. Usally by the time we start these games I have an idea whos going where, sooo.... Some may learn leave it, bad pants.  And, yes if we meet I probably will be wearing pants with rips at boot level.

I don't yet trial. Im close to getting in the game, I really like what I see in this generation of my program. Im not from the people dog world so terms and words and such can and will be different. When, if we meet in trials or training my commands may indeed confuse people like you posted, but they are for my dogs not for the benefit of others to follow along. Make sense? 

 

Great, thanks to all this is clear as mud.

Nans-

One of the best examples and methods of teaching the "Out" is covered in this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Decoys-Aggression-Police-Training-Manual/dp/1550591320/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406060201&sr=1-1&keywords=decoys+and+aggression&dpPl=1

 

Very good book to read.

 

Kim

 

 

Not real fruitful on what your looking for Nan.

 

"Don't know who screwed that up but what is your method?/  Thx in advance  Nan"

 

Puppy, adult, problems with your dog outing.

 

Its hard to throw a rock and hit a unknown target. Maybe clear intent, will help get someone to post something of your liking. :)

 

Let's not have this thread turn into a personal battle between a few members, it has become so boring watching members trying to out do each other. Give your opinions and leave it at that or I will start editing and deleting the nonsense. Play nice kiddies just for once, thanks.

  I have responded to BZCZ's question from above  in different thread  " Lift versus Out"  where I have mentioned "opposition reflex" .  They are not "alleged benefits". The are scientifc facts with which any dog trainer should be familiar. 

 Prager Hans

 

Carly the dog sure doesn't agree with your "facts" Prager.

His grip goes from almost full to half full.  Right there on video big as life for everyone to see. 

Opposition reflex is a real phenomenon.  However, as is true with everything, when it is misapplied, the results are not what is expected.

And YOU SAID THAT LIFTING WASN"T OUTING!!!! So why is he lifted to out?

Never have gotten an answer to that one.

To Nans;

Need a description from you to know what's going on.

I don't teach my dogs to out per say.  I help them realize that spitting the sleeve is the way to reengage the helper.  The out isn't a command, it's a thought process that the dog needs to learn.  Once he understands it, it becomes much easier to train and make reliable.

 

 

BZCZ said: .  The video you use to show that, clearly shows the handler commanding the dog to out (which contradicts all the above) and then when the handler reaches for the dog to perform the "lift" the dog comes off of the sleeve, avoids the handlers hands, gets very munchy in his grip, grabs the hand end of the sleeve and then goes back to a 50% full grip on the elbow. 

1/ My response.  To get the dog of by lifting him up is not teaching him to out but it is making him to out. That is a big difference. The video is not exibition of teaching. The dog is command to out before 

2/  The dog comes off  the sleeve ( and I have already said that before)  because he is COMMANDED TO OUT precisely timer 4:11 Jiri commands him to "out",   and NOT  because he is avoiding the handler, as you erroneously state. The dog is avoiding the handler only later because his out is not correct and he knows it and  really he does not want to out but he knows that it is against command and not because he would be afraid of Jiri as you maliciously state. Actually the opposite is the truth and the dog is flipping Jiri a finger because  he picked on his attitude of fun and not of attitude of discipline . At the beginning If you would speak Russian Jiri said "On ochen dlgo nekusal" (On очень долго не​​кусал​)​. That is at timer 4:41 in English : "He did not do any bite work for some   time." That is since this is an older extremely genetically valuable dog  and there is no need for to work much long distance attacks and risk his injury.  

 Then Jiri grabs the dog and dog knows he will be pulled away = "opposition reflex"  and clamps on .  Thus Jiri lifts him off the sleeve as a means of getting the dog off the sleeve and not as a means as teaching this older titled dog anything as you erroneously understand it.  That is what happened there.

I am commenting on this only since you dragged me into this discussion by your  talk about training while  not even knowing what is "opposition reflex" nor how it works,   and you do not understanding the language  nor know these people so you can not properly evaluate what is going on the video. 

 Prager Hans