Something Other Than Forced Retrieve - Page 2

I think, if you email the owner of that website, she can talk to you about how she finishes/polishes the retrieve.
You can also check out Ivan and Michael Ellis's methods on video (or others). Membership at www.bowwowflix.com is 10.95 a month. Love that site!
---Mary

Not as part of an American Team.  Making the team from Britain is like saying I was on the Jamaican Bobsled Team.  If you want to broadcast retrieving techniques, at least post techniques that will offer someone "excellent" work not just "well at least he went out there and got it" work.  I'm kinda funny that way as I look to always make things better, not just status quo.

As far as Michael Ellis goes, I wouldn't waste postcard money on him or his training.  He scraped a handful of techniques off of Ivan's floors and then went off on his own.  He has no where near the knowledge or expertise that Ivan has developed and has never had success on the trial field.  Selling snake oil is no substitute for success.  Now I'm sure the first statements are going to be "you don't have to be a HOF player to coach" but it sure helps to have spent some time in law school before you defend an innocent accused of murder.

Hey Dude, tell us how you really feel.

I have zero knowledge of how Ellis does retrieves. Never rented/bought one of his vids.
I have got Ivan's and am just now starting the send-out based on his methods. Not sure about the retrieve method, but am watching the video a few dozen times this week.

Some people, like me, are willing to give a little score-wise to train in a way we feel comfortable. I have seen various forced retrieves. A lot of what I have seen I would never, ever, use. Just my choice. If I lose points, or god-forbid, blow the retrieves, then that is on me.
Give me a year and I may change my mind a bit. I may also see and learn better methods that I can live with.

---Mary

i shaped my dumbell retrive it was easy i must say it me a good week working them every morning for my dogs breakfest and my 2 yr old black lab can do a full retrive now. my shepherd who is only 6months old knows how to pick it up the right way(im starting a lot slower with him for my own personal reasons).

Duderino, do you like Balabanov's method of teaching the retrieve?  I just got the part of the OB w/o Conflict that talks about the retrieve and I am about to watch it, but haven't seen it yet.  What do you think of his video or method of teaching the retrieve?

Please excuse my ignorance if this is a real thumb up the nose question but since I don't do schutzund... Dud when you say the retrieve isn't fast enough, I understand the concept of the retrieve, have read the books, watched schu but watching is diff than participating.  The dogs in the videos were puppies learning, I would expect the retrieve to get faster as they keep doing it, am I wrong? I clicked on this thread because I have heard people say "Forced " retrieve before and I always wondered what the "forced" part was.  I have had dogs that I have had to teach to retrieve, I didn't use a clicker, same principal I just "throw them a party" .  When they are learning if they don't bring it back I just walk off, session over they catch on pretty quick.  I don't have any when you throw the ball, dumbell, stick whatever it is that don't run out full speed to get it and full speed back.  When you say "forced" what part is being forced, them holding the dumbell in their mouth, them going and getting it? I guess the question I have is what is the difference between a forced retrieve and a taught retrieve?

A "forced retrieve" can use minimal compulsion, or a TON of compulsion. Can be done with ear-pinch, or pliers to toes. Electric or prong. Can be very ugly, or just uncomfortable.
Generally, the dog is taught that the "safe place" is firmly holding the dumbbell.
Many people, not just schutzhund, teach a FR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdNk3UfFidQ&feature=related 

---Mary

I would stop competing with my dogs rather than do a forced retrieve. 

Thanks so much Mary for posting my website and retrieve!  My newer website is a little easier to read and I update it regularly as something new comes up - http://www.schutzhund-training.com/clicker_retrieve.html  I agree that the clicker retrieve speed will depend on the dog's intrinsic level of drive for a toy or food.

Yep, little Bodeus went to the WUSV from England and just scraped a pass, he was not a super powerful dog, but he did everything I asked, he was my first GSD, got me in to schutzhund and we had loads of fun.  His retrieve was 100% clicker and most of his retrieves were SG in competition.  He completed 9 SchH3s.

Currently I am polishing the clicker retrieve using the NEPOPO type low level electric training by Bart Bellon.  Here is Apollo during the polishing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PtDi0MMRa8 - and then at the SCR regional this year - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBRLXBwVfHA - A little slow on the flat pickup, so we are working on that.

Often the dog is reluctant to out after the dumbell is thrown, for the high drive dog it becomes a toy which must be possessed!  We spend a lot of time doing the hold in front, and out and re-hold etc so we get a good out before we do a full retrieve.  Then we do back halfs from sit, again so there is no throwing, progressing to the throw later.  We also teach the dog that the dumbell is not a toy but just a means to getting either food or ball....  Hope this makes sense.

Good luck!

- Louise Jollyman -
'It's Bode, he's famous!'
http://www.bodeus.com
http://www.brimwylf.com
http://www.schutzhund-training.com

Louise, I know I am working my male with "your method" and am very comfortable with it. He is a pretty fast, powerful dog-- so right now, I am having to slow him down. (He does not want to look/lick the dumbbell, he wants to grab it and run.)
Several of our club members are going to train with Bart this weekend.

My dog's half-brother was having issues with the forced retrieve via electric. I sent his owner your links, as well as Shirley Chong's and others. The dog is doing a beautiful, happy retrieve with fronts from what I have seen via youtube. I think his owner may have even emailed you with a "thanks."

Hope it is OK if I keep linking your website!

--Mary