Civil Dogs and Civil Work - Page 10

Amen

Missing the like button for Gustav's post ... 👍👍👍

Great topic. To possibly keep the conversation going, "Is a civil dog an untrustworthy or unpredictable dog?". We had a GSD that had that on off switch. But he was a very confident dog and did not view humans as a threat. He was aloof unless a threat presented itself. He was not equipment fixated. He had no problem biting a human without a sleeve if instructed. His bites were always full and calm. He had no problem biting for real. He would also do a sit and watch, not a big barker. Completely trusted him around our children. He was a yard dog when our children played outside. He was good for personal protection but not the sport.

Kyle

normal civil dog is trustworthy, as he has focussed or controlled agression, as in opposite to handler, or overall agression

For me the term "civil" (or not) only is a part of the overall dog.
Civility paired with fear is not good,
civility paired with self confidence is good -
civility paired with high and medium threshold is good, civility paired with low threshold is bad -
civility without any prey drive difficult in "normal" surroundings, civility with at least medium prey drive easy to train-
civil, but unsocial = difficult
civil, but handler aggressive = difficult

I could go on and on - and at the end it's always about our personal goals.

For me, training and the human mindset ( believe it or not, really bonded dogs do mimic our mindset ) are an important part of the later outcome, but inherited genetics always are the start.

eastern bloc countries probably put a higher emphasis on the civil trait

that's remind me old joke of my mentor in regard of dog's evaluation.

there are dogs, who will bite when you told them to do so and there are dogs who will not bite only when you told them do not do this.

but always remember, there also the dogs, who will bite, regardless of what they been told.

Kyle
I am glad that you asked that question . THAT is what I was trying to make apparent when I asked at the beginning of the thread : what the definition of civil was to people. You wouldn't need ask that question from me Kyle .

If I was looking at a dog or even your dog then , either formally or informally , the first thing I ALWAYS determine is this dog of normal temperament . Meaning is the dog sound or unsound. If I said to you Kyle your dog has sound temperament , has normal & good mentality , and is civil , you would not have to ask that question. You would know intuitively your answer before you even asked it. From my previous posts one would know from meaning the dog is civil , that one would have a very good dog for that purpose . One would not have to figure out , many things , one being if the dog was trustworthy.

What I see is the opposite . People calling a dog civil and then figuring out if when a dog bit a person , if that was normal bite and a normal dog. The problem with this way of looking at the dog .. with the exception of the many posters on this thread, who can differentiate and read a dog, the majority of people do not know how to differentiate when a dog is biting a person from normal temperament or when it is not. I have seen police officers that cannot always understand when the dog has good temperament or not. I have seen sport people likewise. That is why I pontificated , that if the dog was not normal , then it is not even worthy to talk anymore about this dog in a manner of speaking about real life , serious work . Sport ok . But not real life.

I think the moderators misconstrued my intention and meaning . I was blocked from logging on onto the site for a few days. I don't understand , trying to describe a dog , when in fact we don't even know if the dog is sound or not to begin with . The posters understand civil , but after you see a dog is civil , will bite a person ... then what ??? For the moderators... whatever this is worth the most prestigious people in the dog world taught and tested me that whatever I do with a dog , to first look at temperament. I only pass on what I have been taught.
The moderators I think missed my reason for posting previously.  

Cent: "not normal = sport okay"...

Are you serious? A huge amount of sport dogs are the ones living around family members, neighbours, children - but only a small amount of so called "real work" dogs.
At least in my country the "real work" dogs ( like patrol dogs, used during political protests, or to calm down hooligans) neither need to be social nor medium driven - muzzle on and here we go.

Edit, I forgot : At the end it's always about our goals we have in mind, and last but not least our personal training skills and situation of life ( property, family, friends ).

The perfect dog - fine - but up to now I neither found a perfect human nor a perfect dog, I just found some humans and dogs fitting into my personal lifestyle 😎

Would I breed a civil dog with genetically low threshold/thin nerves? Sure not. May this kind of dog find its nieche? Possibly.

I think the moderators misconstrued my intention and meaning . I was blocked from logging on onto the site for a few days   

 

I know of no Admin blocking you. Do you know who blocked you or why. That would have shown up when you tried to sign in. 

Western Rider   

Susie .. . I did not say not normal dogs make great for family . What I had in mind and trying tom keep the post short was : that some** temperament deficient dogs can do sport [ pending the problem** ] or I should have used a better word ,i.e recreation time with the owner. . Many times we worked these dogs in a sport scenario so that the handler could learn to control those dogs. Also there many sports, e.g agility , not all sports are protection sports . Many times doing sport/ activity , aided in the dog learning coping skills and aided the owner handling these dogs . And the owners learned to anticipate triggers , and how to channel the behavior before it arouse . . One can do sport/ an activity with the dog , but that does not imply because you work the dog that you have to compete with the dog either . I am saying that an unsound dog has a better chance doing something with the owner , has a better chance in life if the owner does something with the dog - but has no chance on real life endeavors.