WGWL Service Dog breeder, Pedigree analysis help-"lord"? - Page 5

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by TIG on 15 November 2021 - 17:11

You have received great advice please take the time to listen & digest. Hexe, BE ⭐⭐ . 

 I would suggest you really need to get much more education on the breed & breeding. If you search the archives using the names of the better posters on this breed you will find many posts by all of us addressing how this is best done.

 Just one example is your statement about maintaining " diversity" shows you have little understanding about the realities of animal breeding and genetics. While I think that our breed has bifurcated into far too many "slices" with everyone on the road to perdition in their own little black hole of Calcutta, there are ways to bring it back together and ways not to. 

Using your idea of "diversity" you will never produce consistency in your breeding. Whatever your goal, showing, herding, law enforcement, assistance dogs you are aiming for consistency and you need to select and choose to shape the strain of dogs that you want. Man long ago found the tools that allow him to do that. Go and read books on dog breeding. Carmen Battaglia also gives a good seminar tho his focus is on show dogs, the mechanics work for other choices. 

Some of these tools are type to type breeding, linebreeding and inbreeding. 2-3 and 3-4 linebreedings are particularly useful in setting wanted traits PROVIDING the individuals both express & produce the desired trait(s). 

When you have an open pedigree (and while there is some small distant linebreeding in your boy essentially he has an open pedigree) what you get is a crap shoot and most breeders don't want that.

Plus even when deliberately bringing in New lines or opening up a pedigree experienced breeders KNOW that they are quite likely to take a hit and it may take 1-3 generations to get back to their same level of success - which is often why it is not done. 

I like studying old time breeders and their "brews" - how they got what they got. Find some breeders who "consistently" produced dogs you liked. Look at HOW they did that (wh btw often includes a component of getting pups into the right hands). An example of what I am talking about was the kennel von Gelben Ruhl. He started with a few favorite lines Blue Scipio Ziggo Bungalow that were his well to always go back to. His goal was a V on both ends and he achieved that many many times.( wh is not easy btw) While later in life he focused a bit more on the hi-lines he kept true to his brew. So for example he would have a bitch linebred on his show lines and he would take her to a working dog sire. The progeny then were bred back ito his line.

The reality you need to look at is the vast majority of males are not bred to. Period! Plus you have an uphill battle of an open pedigree missing many many health & training qualifications. In short no one reputable will breed to your dog and those that may you probably don't want & certainly should be looking at them with a fish eye. 

AFTER you have a LOT more education on the breed & breeding, either buy yourself a good bitch or lease one. Preferably linebred as noted above which then allows you to try several kinds of breeding. Meanwhile as advised collect & freeze your guy.

The time learning will allow you to make connections with people who have already put in the time to develop the balanced dogs BE talked about giving you a step up in getting a good bitch who CAN help you meet your goals. 

One last comment to Gcat. BE is right about assistance dogs needing drive. Without it they will NOT be successful. And sorry it is possible for a dog to do both if they are clearheaded enough ( a quality we are losing in the breed) just ask Jason Lake or me. Here is the link to my girl and btw she never ever once confused the role she was in. https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=485683-remy?_v=20200203153434. AND please note she was a H.O.T. Dog even to I walked with arm crutches. I believe Jason's dogs have also been H.O.T.

You might want to read this. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=785214-the-hallmarks-of-a-good-shepherd&p=1

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 November 2021 - 11:11

Personal Protection x Service Dogs:

Have we looked at what people consider Personal Protection or even Service Dogs? I deal with the broad public every single day. I get a lot of requests for Service Dogs and Personal Protection dogs.
People do not buy quality dogs to train them as Personal Protection Dogs. They do not buy quality dogs for Service Dog Work. They don't even do enough research when they do buy from a semi good breeder.
I have people buying Great Pyrenees Dogs for 6 year old Kids to be used as a Service Dog. I have people with Labrador Husky Mixes that want them to be trained as Personal Protection Dog. They literally go to a shelter, adopt any dog, and then they are like "Oh, lets train him as a Service Dog." 

People have outlandish expectations of what a dog can and cannot do. I do not want the general public to even think it's possible to have a PPD and SD.

As for the ADA, yes the wording has changed. And good luck trying to win a court case if your dog ever ends up making a choice in public and nails someone!

There are very few helpers I would trust to train a TRUE Personal Protection Dog, let alone capable to pair that with Service Dog Training.


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 17 November 2021 - 09:11

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding here; I really would never advocate breeding for service dogs and protection dogs in the same litter or attempting to train a dog for both; that's absolutely unrealistic for 99% of dogs and owners. I do not know of any ADI program or other type of program I have personally interacted with that would advocate for that either, except for one very especially puppy mill/scam SD program preying on veterans and young people that I had an unfortunate lesson with. There is a reason it isn't done, and anyone who is claiming to do so commercially is nearly certainly unethical, especially if the dogs are $$$$$$$.


If you breed for the correct German Shepherd Dog you will have dogs in the litter that are capable of doing Protection Work, or be a Search Dog, or be a Service Dog. It doesn't mean they will be trained in all of it, it just means they have the stability, drive and character to do it. This is why I will always advocate to breed for a balanced, total dog. You can have overall uniformity in a litter but there will always be dogs that are more and dogs that are less.

For example, I have a dog that makes a fantastic Service Dog for me, because I am an experienced handler, but with a brandnew handler, it would be catastrophic. He's way too extroverted and too much dog for the every day person  My other dog, who is a genetically neutral dog, is just as much dog but you wouldn't ever know when you meet him. He's a very introverted dog and easy going. He doesn't go from 0-150 in a split second, like my other male. He is much easier to handle for the every day person and would make a fantastic pet. He's lazy, likes to lounge around and doesn't need to be entertained every day like my other dog. With all of his traits, he would make a great Search Dog, Police Dog, Sport Dog... it does not matter what role you put him in, he would take it and strive in it. 

And that's what I really want in my dogs. I like dogs that can adapt and fill several roles. There is a reason why the Shepherd is called a Jack of all Trades. They are supposed to be an all around dog which is where the balance comes in. 


  • Character
  • Temperament
  • Stability 
  • Resilience
  • Health

I honestly don't worry about drive or grips simply because there are things that are implied. For Service Dog, the main thing you want is at the very least a medium food drive. Without food drive, it's going to be a pain in the arse to condition a dog. Not impossible but food drive is just the best route to go. You want dogs with a good threshold. If you have a dog with low thresholds, you need experienced handlers for those. You want dogs that are handler oriented yet also have a certain independence and resilience. You need forgiving dogs. Dogs that will not fall apart over their owners making mistakes, or fall apart if something happens in public. I guess you could call it resilience but personally, there is a difference between resilience and forgiving. There are dogs that are resilient but not very forgiving. And there are forgiving dogs that are not necesessarily resilient, if that makes sense? 

Anyhow, there is so much to breeding. All I can say is to breed for what the Shepherd is supposed to be. 


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