new toughts on Schutzhund - Page 1

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by apple on 02 April 2019 - 11:04

I just watched a few minutes and got the main idea they are shooting for. I had heard about this movement, but this is the first public discussion I have seen. I think the movement is long overdue, but I doubt it will go far enough for my liking. That is why I have chosen to do PSA with my new dog. Maybe later in the video there was discussion about the choreographed nature and predictability of schutzhund. That is a lot of what I don't like. Plus, I don't think the bite work or obedience is that challenging compared to PSA. I also see the tracking as an obedience exercise more than real scent work or tracking that would useful in evaluating working ability rather than a performance. But at least it is a start in the right direction. I cannot imagine not being allowed to use a prong or e-collar, even though, they are tools that don't make or break training for me. But they certainly can improve teaching a dog behaviors when used correctly. I think the padded stick is little to no challenge to a good dog and removing stick hits completely is ridiculous. I like PSA because I strive for the highest level of obedience I can get from my dog, which is a performance factor, but the dog is challenged to remain obedient by trying to distract the dog and getting him to break an obedience command instead of just giving a nice performance. With the bite work, there is significant environmental pressure and variety put on dogs in the higher levels that test obedience and nerves that schutzhund doesn't, contributing to the breeding of lesser dogs resulting in weakening of a breed.

by Koach on 02 April 2019 - 11:04

As with everything else in life people are telling us what to do and how to do it. I find it a sad state of affairs. I came to Schutzhund from versatile hunting dogs as it was getting more and more difficult to get permissions to use land for hunting and training. I also seen Schutzhund change and the dogs that excel change. Today's dogs are different in so many ways. PSA will also have a fight on their hands as the dog liberation movement gets a foothold in society. It's all part of the great divide that is happening politically around the world as people move into cities and are removed from the natural world (the real world). All species go through this when things get too crowded. Very sad.

I wish Debbie lots of luck and hope her group succeeds. We will be following closely and probably joining them as soon as there is a possibility.


Q Man

by Q Man on 02 April 2019 - 14:04

People have disagreed with me before when I said that Schutzhund has been being "watered down" for years and the usefulness is now missing...
I think the sport has been "watered down" for the purpose of attracting more people to the sport...all a while loosing it's foundation and it's purpose of being a breed worthy test...
As for the resistance of using certain equipment all awhile even worse equipment is being used in zoos and for control of other animals...
I think some of the answers are to respond correctly to people who mistreat animals in general and not to control how people train...


by astrovan2487 on 03 April 2019 - 02:04

This actually sounds like a lot of fun as far as the testing goes. I think it's a great idea if its used for informational purposes for breeding and/or just sport but I do not think it should be confused as any kind of actual working certification. If it is I think they will have a hard time getting anyone outside of sport involved. Being involved in sport and work I see people confusing the two all the time, its not the same thing and won't be even if you make the tests more realistic for the sport. If someone wants to certify their dog to use for professional purposes, there are already multiple ways of doing so and they have nothing to do with sport for a reason.

By using the pseudo narcotics for the detection test they are going to further limit themselves because no one with an actual working dog outside of narcotics or sport will want to imprint their dog on that odor (explosives, bed bugs, human remains, medical detection dogs).

I love IPO tracking so I don't like that it is being cancelled out in 2 years. If a dog can perform well under the stringent IPO tracking rules with aged, long tracks, I doubt it will have any issues with simple scent detection tests. I see a lot of dogs fail IPO1 tracking, the scent detection tests they are proposing sound too easy to me.

Interested to see what your opinion is Duke

by Gustav on 03 April 2019 - 11:04

This is step in right direction for maintaining the GS as a working dog. Not perfect, but far better and more realistic than what’s in place now. Will it get off the ground? I think it’s an uphill battle even with Debbie and Jerry....still it addresses many of the concerns some of us have been screaming about for decades about the current condition and direction of the breed sport/title that are in place now.

by duke1965 on 03 April 2019 - 14:04

the problem I personally see , and what IMO also happened with RSV2000 is that , if you make your test and minimum qualification pretty hard/strong, there are not enough people going to be joining to make it a big enough movement, so either it will be a small group of people or the test will be watered down eventually to keep movement alive


having that said, It is good that people and especially people of name, recognize the problem and are willing to do something about it, but in the end I think it still will be up to the individual breeders to breed upwarts in quality in stead of downwarts

about the detection, I think there is tons of detectionwork that can be done on ball or pipe alone without adding a narc scent, and get to a point where your titled dog will be ready to start first scent so to speak, so that a "titled "dog will be very desireable for LE people to purchase

also other desires for LE, especially environmental, could be implemented for a dog to title, so that titled sportdogs will be able to stream into K9 class from day 1

If that would be the final goal/situation it would be a win/win/win situation, for trainer, Law enforcement and the breed



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