Let's talk about inbreeding - Page 4

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by duke1965 on 12 October 2018 - 06:10



18 koalas were placed on a isolated island around 1920, even with rehoming and sterilization program, poulation is now around 50,000 without options to outcross we can say its a strong inbred population


by Hundmutter on 12 October 2018 - 07:10

Surely the koala project depends on how unrelated the original 18 'bears' placed on the island were, in the first place, as to how long the modern population can stay free of genetic diseases and malformations ? Also, can they be certain there have been NO additional koalas arriving on that island ? There are certainly other cases where so-called isolated populations have been altered by incoming migrant blood, even where the method of getting there is as yet unknown.


by darylehret on 12 October 2018 - 07:10

This year the Mexican Gray wolf population is at a new high of 114 wolves (22 wolf packs) in the wild throughout Arizona and New Mexico. As previously stated, the population is VERY interrelated, however no significant sign of inbreeding depression is present.


by Sunsilver on 12 October 2018 - 14:10

Daryl, I think the key words there are IN THE WILD. Nature is very quick to cull unfit individuals. Humans, however, aren't so good at that. Many animals are bred that shouldn't be bred, because we get sentimentally attached to them, or want to win ribbons in the show ring.

I have farmers in my family, though, who can't afford to be sentimental. Animal husbandry 101: no matter what kind of animals you are raising, you need more than one male to get the females pregnant, and you need to keep changing your males. Breeding fathers to daughters is never a good idea for the bottom line!

Hey, remember when the average lifespan of the GSD was about 12 to 14 years, and now many of the showline dogs are dropping dead before age 10? Ever stop to wonder why?

I've saved some quotes from GSD people on this board who were showing American showlines during the 1970's and 80's when the dogs were being heavily inbred on Lance and his sons:

Louise Penery: Don't worry-all these dogs are bent to self-destruct--as if their owners have a death wish for them. These breeders live ~1.5 hours north of me and bred to my old Ch.UDT. (about 1/2 German) in the late '60's or early '70's. Nice folks--used to belong to the same GSD club in Sacramento. I know that the gaiting hockwalker, Hoheneichen's Caisson Avalon, died at an early age.

Well, yes--I believe that Eiko Hazelda also had his spleen removed--presumably due to torsion. Yes, a number of Hoheneichen dogs and their families suffered early deaths. Poor dogs--if I saw that my canine family were dropping like flies, I'd have a temperament problem, too--wondering if I might be next.

Let take a look at some of the dogs (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/527359.html) in the "peacock"'s illustrious pedigree: (1) CH Leiter's Excalibur--suffered ED (I believe, fragmented coronoid process). (2) CH Nike Clayfield Andretti--died young (I believe, toxic gut syndrome--TGS). This was the dog responsible for activating AKC's DNA testing program. Seems that some litters allegedly sired by this dog were instead sired by one of his sons. (3) Cobert's Sirocco Of Windigail--wore a pacemaker--died when it malfunctioned or fell out. (4) CH Karagin's Crusader--died young of toxic gut syndrome. (5) CH Covy Tucker Hill's Durango--died young. I owned the litter sister to his dam (Covy Tucker Hill's Turtle Dove) who produced both EPI and TGS. Hey, I'm on a roll--I could go on all night.

From Linda Shaw's website:

Another successful kennel was literally down the street; Hermsdorf. At the time their young Grand Victor Condor was mopping up at the shows. He was a very good looking dog, and seemed sound enough. I took his half-sister, on a co-ownership, by the famous American stud Cobert’s Sirocco of Windigail ROM. Brynn was a beauty who moved like silk, and she finished her championship with three five point majors, defeating a GV and several Selects. Unfortunately she was both dysplastic and mentally unstable. I finished her CD at the National a couple points short of HIT, and that year she was the recipient of the ‘Champion in Work and Breed’ award from the GSDCC. It was gratifying, but I realized how little that award meant. The day she finished her championship with five points at a large speciality show was something of a letdown. I loved her, but I knew she should never be used for breeding.

I also knew how many of her competitors were no different. Over a period of a decade I watched almost every Grand Victor at the GSDCC National display obvious nervous instability. I lost count of the dogs that crouched, shied, cowered and trembled before judges who apparently didn’t care. The occasional German dog that showed up was so obviously superior in temperament that I couldn’t understand how the judges could ignore it. Apparently side gait was more important. 

A year later, two year old Brynn bounced into the kitchen for her cookie, slumped to the floor and died. Her heart had stopped. Not long after, I discovered that her sire, Cobert’s Sirocco of Windigail, had sported a heart pacer so he could continue with his breeding career, and had just died prematurely because of it. His owner, Sprock, assured me it wasn’t hereditary. The pathologist rolled his eyes. Whatever faith I had that breeders, judges and breed clubs in North America were committed to breed improvement evaporated right then.

by duke1965 on 12 October 2018 - 15:10

nice storys, but personal experiences dont hold up for reality of all world, I know of a dog that died young of heartfaillure, also many of his ofspring from outcross combinations to that male, died young from hearth faillure, but that doesnot mean anything in either direction


@ hundmutter,, wishfull thinking


sttill waiting for someone to explain why zebras look like zebras and humans cant get one individual litter of pups to look a bit identical


by ItsSouthernLove on 12 October 2018 - 15:10

I am gonna agree with you. I would like to know more about the zebras and why the pups don’t look identical


by Sunsilver on 12 October 2018 - 15:10

If you want to see the true amount of inbreeding/linebreeding/backmassing in these pedigrees, you need to click on the 7 generation link. If I do that for Hoheneichen's Caaisson Avalon, it goes from this: 5,5,5 - 5,5 1967 GV CH (US/CAN) Lance of Fran-Jo ROM 00.20% 04.10%

to this: 5,5,5,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7 - 5,5,6,6,7,7,7,7 1967 GV CH (US/CAN) Lance of Fran-Jo ROM 00.20% 04.10%

So, there is a tremendous amount of backmassing on Lance, which doesn't show in the coefficient of inbreeding.

Does all that backmassing matter? Well, it obviously wasn't producing healthy, long-lived animals!

Currently, there is similar backmassing in the German showline dogs, which may be why so many of them are dropping dead before the age of 10 for various reasons.

by Sunsilver on 12 October 2018 - 15:10

nice stories, but personal experiences dont hold up for reality of all world, I know of a dog that died young of heart failure, also many of his offspring from outcross combinations to that male, died young from heart failure, but that does not mean anything in either direction.

Gee, ya think??  Teeth Smile

Roll eyes  SMH

Sounds more like maybe Dad was carrying a dominant gene or genes for heart problems!

Well, you go on believing whatever you want, Duke. I'll stick with what I learned in university when I studied population genetics.

Edit: Southern Love, this might help answer your question about dogs and zebras:  https://www.livescience.com/59875-less-variety-in-cats-than-dogs.html 


by ItsSouthernLove on 12 October 2018 - 15:10

Ohh she got a good point right there too. Makes me wonder about the whole thing. I just don’t know about Lance though

by duke1965 on 12 October 2018 - 15:10

An image

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