by duke1965 on 14 October 2018 - 04:10
by joanro on 14 October 2018 - 12:10
First, define outcross.
Second, birds have wings, mammals have legs. We are talking about INBREEDING, as in father/ daughter, brother/ sister, mother/ son
The young bull elephant is kicked out of the herd sometimes as late as when he comes into musth the first time....never to be allowed back...ever!
And the herd is matriachal, so it's the females who kick him out.
The breeding bull will compete with a younger rival and eventually be replaced.
Since the female can only breed about every four years or longer, and the young female is not breeding age until her mid to late teens, the chances of her being bred by her sire are slim to none. If he is 25 before he gets to sire calves in a specific herd, and the daughter is born two years later, he is now 27 years old. Then 15 years before she will breed, now he is 47 years old with thousands of miles under his belt, many fights taking a toll on his old body...along comes a 22 year old bull who kicks his ass and leaves him for lion bait on the plains....Abracadabra! New blood is introduced to the herd!
The bulls travel hundreds of miles so new blood is available to the herds of females.
I have spent days watching captive American bison, on a privately owned buffalo ranch ( where I bought a young bull calf to raise and train).
The herd sire will do his utmost to rid the herd of the young mature bulls from the herd.
Since they are fenced, the young bulls are at the mercy of the big bull....time after time, the big bull charges the young one, slamming into his side with the impact of a trainwreck! Until the ribs are smashed and the young bull is left to die....at any cost ! Because the herd sire is genetically hardwired to prevent his son from breedng with the herd!
Goats do the same, domestic cattle do the same...in fact all horned , split hoofed animals do the same...kill the young male if he won't leave!
Horses, donkeys, all the equine...do the same.
Duke, inbreeding in nature is avoided and is cemented into the genetic behavior of species to avoid it. Servival of the species dictates there is is zero tollerance for inbreeding.
Believe what you like, I'm not trying to convince you that inbreeding is against nature. But I will state that I believe you are mistaken.
by joanro on 14 October 2018 - 13:10
Ruger: ...the freaks, lol Indeed !!!
Yes, the freaks such as the pitiful Pekinese that is so terribly deformed that they can barely preambulate, and their face/ head is so deformed they must have soft palate resection to be able to breathe!
And look what has happened to the bulldog, because of selecting for deformity!
They are beautiful dog minds trapped inside grotesquely deformed bodies...and humans selected them, inbred them to cement the deformities into the breed !!
by Sunsilver on 14 October 2018 - 14:10
We have a guy in our club who owns an English bulldog. He actually got his BH with it, and an FH1! He is into scent detection in a big way, which is why he hangs around the club - the club director has a scent detection business.
You should see that poor dog's teeth when it opens its mouth! Out of alignment, pointing every which way... His previous bulldog just collapsed one night for no apparent reason, and died in his arms.
I would never, ever buy one of the short-faced breeds. No way am I going to support the breeders who perpetrate this cruelty!
by ValK on 14 October 2018 - 16:10
Rik, Jesse, Ruger
i'm not really concerned about handsomeness of dog but more about practical efficiency.
he wasn't disaster but yet, my weakest GSD.
told us his mentor had been involved with the breed since the 30 s and he said the usual life was only 8 to 10 years....that's pathetic.
what make you think it's pathetic?
dog's closest relatives, wolves and coyotes, lives about only half of that.
wolf lifespan i think something like 5-6 years. do you think that's because they were born unhealthy?
by joanro on 14 October 2018 - 18:10
Valk, where did you hear the wolf only lives normal 5-6 years. That's not true. They are at least three years old before they breed, then the pups remain, being taught about life for two years. 15 years is normal in the wild unless they get shot. But no matter, dogs are not wolves. Wolves have to work for their food, traveling hundred or more miles a day. But 5 years lifespan does not give enough time for replacement population....they would already be extinct if what you claim was normal for the wolf.
8- 10 years is pathetic for life span of dogs.
As I mentioned in other post, my dogs have lived 15- 16 years, my Irish terrier lived to just shy of 17 years old.
When I was a kid, it was Normal for dogs to live 17 years.
Rule of thumb...the longer it takes for an animal to learn survival skills and reproduce successfully, the longer the lifespan.
by joanro on 14 October 2018 - 19:10
Questions for you, valk. How do you suppose the numbers 5-6 years is figured?
How do " they" know how old the wolf was when it died...
how did they happen to " find" a dead wolf, or for ALL wolflifespan, how did they find many, many dead wolves and how did "they" determine it's age when it died? They would have to know when it was born, amirite?
If every dead wolf is found before it is decomposed and remains are scattered to the hills, about the only way would be if the wolf had been shot with tranquilizer gun, and a big fat tracking collar installed on it's neck....after a hundred measurements are taken, and the age recorded after some guesswork!
Now the wolf had to recover from the anesthesia and be accepted by the packmates with this big ugly human scented thing around it's neck.
Knowing what I do about wolves, I will venture to say the animal is rejected outright, if not killed.
Couple weeks later, the Stoopid " researchers" go looking for the wolf with the collar and find it dead, and say, welp, he reached "old age" at the estimated 5 years old.....when in reality, the poor thing probly starved to death without the pack.
That's about how accurate research " in the wild" is.
If a wolf can live in captivity for 15- 18 years, that is genetics so the same or better, in it's natural environment can be achieved.
by 1Ruger1 on 14 October 2018 - 22:10
“They are beautiful dog minds trapped inside grotesquely deformed bodies”
I’m not disagreeing with you, but I’m not agreeing either.
The quote makes me thoughtful 🤔 as did your previous one I quoted.
by joanro on 15 October 2018 - 00:10
If you have not had experience with the deformed breeds of dogs you may not be able to relate.
It's heartbreaking watching the bracycephalic dogs that also have deformed limbs try to do what their dog minds want to do...but they can't. They can't get enough air and their legs and backs don't work as they are supposed to. It's very sad. Especially sad that they have been deliberately bred to be deformed.
by Rik on 15 October 2018 - 00:10
valk said "Rik, Jesse, Ruger i'm not really concerned about handsomeness of dog but more about practical efficiency. he wasn't disaster but yet, my weakest GSD."
after a little thought, I edited my comments. there is just no way in 130 years of GSD that this pictured GSD ended up in the hands of such a novice.
and in my years here, there is only one who could pull this off. and he has made me laugh many times.
congrats to you and your helper "valk".