growling..... - Page 3

Slamdunc .. glad to hear you work dogs too .. i will add to what you said .. a stick problem with a sdport dog .. OH MY .. a police officer brought a dog to me and my foirends a few years ago .. he walked through the door , i waived , not in a threat , just slowly passed a bamboo stick 2 feet over the head , hrozontally , not in a downward motion .. over the dog .. the reraction : the dog hopped backwards two feet. Guess what : he just got this dog from someone else , the dog wa 1.5 years old .. he told me he was thinkoing of doing police K9 work with this dog . next i waived my hand over his head [ for the avewrage person here now realize this is a great way to get b it, so please don't do what i did !!] same reaction . ----------- that ended that dog as a candidate for apprehending a criminal !! not the type of dog slamdunc you would stake your life on either HUH ??   i don't blame you BTW , sometimes strange things happen .. i was utilizing thed thrtead to share some experiences and knowledge for those that come to read the PDB .. YA .. somtimes we do everything right , absolutely right .. .. and still ,,we find ourselves spinning our wheels !!

Such are topics so relevant to training helpers, whose talent lies with the spontaneously respond and reaction to teach a learning dog the approriate behaviour in protection work.  When to subdue or intensify to bring about the correct mindset when in prey and when in defense which ultimately lead to building confidence and success in any dogs in protection work.

I once took my dog to a schutzhund club.  She has only done minimal bitework mainly preywork elsewhere.  She is a talented little dog with a tad on the serious side.  I saw that in her when she was a wee pup; strong willed, absolutely aloof and very focussed.  She was a handful for a novice such as I so I delayed in starting her in bitework development.   Prior to taking my dog who was 15 months to the field, the helper enquired how much has she done.   I said not much but just build on her confidence.  Standing in the field holding the leash 6-8 ft long, the helper approached.  My dog started barking, no hackles but serious deep barking.  The helper instructed me to make my dog sit and be quiet.  Instantly I felt sh*t.  If I had more b*lls I would have walked off the field.  But being a novice and not wanting to make a scene, I subjected my dog to 10 minutes of sh*t training.  Needless to say, her grips was affected.

I took a journey, just under 5000 miles to a well respected helper and the difference was incredible.   It was a treat and I needed a holiday.  Though my dog behaved the same, the helper did not make an issue out of it and basically make his assessment and feel her out.  Within a few minutes, I could see my dog's light bulb switched on and was learning and enjoying bitework. It was a euphoric moment for me and my dog.  The helper did not even ask me how much she has done.  Tested her grip, reinforced her grips and the process went from there.  I stayed for two wonderful weeks and believed what true training helperwork truely means.

posieden .. i nice story to have shared .. but let me add .. i would not have judged your forst helper to harsh .. at times i will do the ame thing , or as an alternative i will watch the handler dog as the dog comes out of the vehicle ... i will explain : IN my persoanle phiosophy .. and i crash down hard on decoys / helpers etc about this : NO DOG SHOULD EVER BE WORKED [ includung even a basic pet OB class] , UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND THAT DOG AND OWNER !! this si one of the biffest errors i see even amopung those that think they are the greatest helpers !! when you assume -- you get into trouble !!
      Second pet peeve of mine : I do not want to condition , see a dog walk on the field and automatically look or think it gets a bite !! and i have reasons for that but will side sep a seminar here !!. ok a session has a begining and an end , like every exercise i communicate to a dog that the request has a begining and an end. .. so you dog is sitting .. now , tell you dog . ok boy work .. then i may stay still , yes i want the dog at that point to bark like heel .. why ? because i don't want the dog to be conditioned to the facxt that it needs excessive agitation / stimulation to work - i let the dog become empowered and that it thinks it can get me to work .. But rmember , you have laready given the 'green light for the dog to do so ' . the theory " teach the dog self control , to work with it's mind / as welll as instincts , .... not what i am writing does NOT have to be an ABSOLUTE , now i do change things up pending the temperamnet and the owner as times. BUT this is where 'control' , not obedience begins ... the difficulty - many times the dog gets on the field , all wired up , agitatgion , agitation , all fired up [ an understatenment] then one ownders why control problems filter into the protection work .. a rpeitoire of problems , like dogs that don't out , that blow off onwers commands, that work frantic/hectic, .. So ther is NO ONE WAY TO DO PROTECTION .... different people have different styles. another factor is sometimes environment .. i see what you described before , take the dog toantoher envirnopment , and he looks like a different dog . MY point : let's be fair to helpers and decoys ... it is a very big responsibility and dog trianing is an art not just muchanics.

AP, I appreciate your valued contributions to PDB.  But when you say, "let's be fair to helpers and decoys ... it is a very big responsibility and dog trianing is an art not just muchanics." I would actually put the dog's well being first and foremost.  There are good honest helpers and there are also piss poor ones.  Knowing the difference means extending one's own knowledge and understanding what the training is about and how the training is progressing.

I have met enough individuals who have retired their first or second schutzhund dog/s mainly due to poor protection training work who admittedly knew little themselves in the beginning and just acted likes puppets being told what to do and what is wrong with the dog.  The problem never occurred that it was poor helperwork.

I have full respect for even trainee helpers seeking good advice or being mentored by an experienced helpers but not any one putting the bitesuit/ sleeves and making themselves look good on the field to the detrement of the dog.

Ron,
        You said .."disclaimer...this dog is doing great things....personally for me the growling isn't a problem...just for future knowledge:-) "


Growling is associated with sharpness, but it has to be balanced with focus and all the other drives.
It is not a bad thing per say but if the dog can work without a lot of growling it is better.
If it is the dog breeding you may have adjust to it.

Sharpness in a dog is probably the most important aspect you will look at as a judge. With
some dogs GSD off of Tom or Malinois off Bibber and Rottweilers off of Karol. You can expect some
growling. However I have had good dogs off of all them that were sharp and no growling.

Generally it is a pet peeve the dog has that makes him growl during work.

If you judge... look at all 3 aspects for balance Soft, hard and sharp. This is
what defines the dog breeding.

Growling ...and sharpness.

Footnote ...some dogs growl because they don't like there ears touched...It is a dog thing.

Generally it is a pet peeve the dog has that makes him growl during work.

Mainly...please explain....

I believe the dog has an excellent balance of drives....

here is the pedigree...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=597370


I'm going to work him myself tonight to see if he growls on me:-)

Ron,
It won't be the same with you working him.  If it is that would be very interesting.  Good looking dog and super pedigree.


Jim 

poseiden .. absloutely .. your post has merit !! yes .. there are a lot of [learning first timers / rookie , know it all , helpers out there. .... again that is why i always always evaluate the dogs/owners .. you make a most , the most important commentary .. i will second your reply - yes the well being of the dog is first and paramount.. and yes .. sadly , i too have seen some folks coming to the sports to learn .. and forgive me for saying this , put their faith & dog into the hands of ________** to train ,only to see devasting affects ! . and i have seen a nomber of others that have gone your same situation too . i was awakwardly saying that there are a number of varaible in protection , i have seen world class helpers , at a times have very bad sessions  , make a mistake too , we are all human .. i should have made that much much more clearer .. sorry .. But getting back to your post .. yes !! .. anytime you don't think your dog is handled well , any where .. then leave.. AP

 His mother looks like she could be a Mink daughter. The is not much to go on
Jim Beam the the father ( Kor report) He is a serious dog from his
reputation....

His mother sound alot like Mink...Mink was a paradox of hard and sharp.
As a producer he gave the unusual but most wanted ingredient of a dog
moving passed the growling from being hard. To focusing in on the trainer.
The helpers job was simple just move the level up a notch by bring the aggression
to a bark and hold as a release from pressure. Bart Bellon would use a finger kicker
sometimes to get the dog to bark. But I would bring it out from being inside the dogs head.
If you have done some ring work you will understand this concept.

Also I work dogs who are very high energy, and have more gears than most dogs so I
get alot more behavior in the beginning but the pay off down the road is much better.

Peeves are the same with dogs as they are with people. But if you breed for a type of dog you
can generally isolate and reduce any variables that will stand in your way. There some very good
breeding's that people don't understand yet. many dogs mature and move passed the bad stuff
to become outstanding dogs....Hope I did not over load you with in put.

He will be 3 in Sept...still a young dog.

Minks kor report....


Large, strong, not fully imposed male. Croup should be longer, balanced breast conditions. A short, steep upper arm, hindquarters well angled. Front wide provided. Elbows should fit better. Rear outreach course from messy back straight, front toe tight. Adequately safe nature, hard,
   High in courage and combat power.

Alot of Germans thought Mink was a ugly dog, but I like his looks.....

judron .. a growl .. is .. not a pet peeve.. it is a growl ,is a growl ** -  an expression , a verablization and in some way  a communication .. now as far as that is concearned ... i will not get into that as a  canine debate .. simply , as a gentleman , i just leave  between you and your dog , Again , i would  normally say IMO . but this time with rerspect , it is not an opinion ..