growling..... - Page 2

i am glad that you have no concearn .. again i am not there to see ... but the post is not primarily /only oriented to you ... there is a qualitative and quatitative aspect to growling that other people reading the posts should be cognizant of. No misunderstnading .. i have trained a number of dogs to 'key on the man' .. nothing wrong about that .. IF that is what you want. i also have trained specifically and purposely to magnify the suspicion levels in some of my GSDS .. again , nothing wrong with that. As long as we understand the dogs. many peole here may or cannot differentiate. I have seen several occasions , Sch trainers , trained for 20 years that did not understnad , or if they did understand , they could not channel , the dog. this is why i began the post with ' caution'. i have trained dogs .. that .. you neededn't ever do 'hidden sleeve' work .. the bent of these dogs , having been 'keyed' on a man ... and the combined temperamnt , was sufficient for them , in a context' , to take someone out. prsonally . i think as a well bred , balanced GSD as a pensive , calm , cool , collected canine that in it's work presents that way .. ansd i stand by my point : what does the growling mean , what is the dog saying ? is it to much to fast .. even in defense.. ok teach the dog in defense he can take someone out fast .. over time increase the ability /legnth of the fight , or switch the drives defense to prey to defense , teach perserverence .  .. seems the dog could be, and this is one perception getting frustrated ... as if he is not in control .. at times this can lead to control problems or possibly a hectic frantic dog.   .. again , i don't know what is transpiring , i am not there .. the point of the post " we really need to get into the mind , heart, motivation , feeling of the dog in any thing we do , that is the point .. to fully understand ... : growling is a form of communication !! so whether i am right or wrong is not the issue .. the issue is " what is the dog saying and how is that going to afffect how we train in regards to our goal.

I have never tried raising this boys suspicion level (doing that to a few other dogs)...never had to...The dog was never taught to focus on the man...that is him:-)  He carrys well off leash...and has never gone after the helper. Once I out him...he is not concerned with the sleeve at all....right back at the man. He is quite calm in all he does...being hectic is not in this dogs nature...The dog will be 3 in Sept....

 the issue is " what is the dog saying and how is that going to afffect how we train in regards to our goal.

couldn't agree more!!!

Ron,
I am currently working a dog something like this in SchH.  The dog has a great pedigree, great grips, but is a little sharp and balanced but slightly more on the defensive side than the prey side.  The dog is a very nice young dog and a really good sport dog.  The dog had a small issue with the stick as a younger dog, I'm not sure what caused it.  It didn't come about at training but I was quick to see it and work on fixing it.  It is very easy to switch this dog from prey to seriously "civil."  I noticed that at about 5 months and warned the handler.  I work this dog primarily in prey and can slip the sleeve and get back into the sleeve, the grips are calm, full and hard.  However, if I approach the dog with the stick in my hand after slipping the sleeve he would drop the sleeve and try to nail me.  I spend a lot of my time on grip work and calming this dog and letting him know that this is not a "real fight" but a sparring match.  I will give a bite slip the sleeve and take the leash and run in a circle with the dog myself, but I am very careful doing this.  I will even cradle the sleeve and stroke the dog before giving him back to the handler.
 
I might try working the dog in prey on the post and having the helper go to the ground and calmly drawing the dog in to his body.  Letting the dog get comfortable on the bite on post by letting the helper wrap him up a little on the ground then the helper can go limp and the dog is praised and calmed on top of the helper.  I'm sure you have done this before.  I would just becareful to keep the line taught and watch the grips that the dog doesn't regrip somewhere else.  This is where reading the dog becomes very important.  That is something I would try if I were working your dog. 

Just another thought to consider,

Jim
 

Slam...Ha Ha....you working my dog:-)....your comment about the stick struck home. I noticed the same stick issue when my boy was young. I stopped using it for a while...he is good with it now..(I don't use a whip).

the prey work is where I'm going with him....my helper ain't getting on the ground....:-) he might not get up:-) I need to clone myself so I can work my own dog....OR where are you:-)


thanks for taking the time....everyone!

Jim .. i have come across your ' stick' situation a number of times .. different reasons why this exists[ i'll leave that alone for now].  . but for the forum folk ... again not to you in particualr .. ONE suggestion [ just one ] . ,however allow me to state as i have often on the PDB ... teach outside the routine what you want to communicate to the dog , THEN bring that into the session .  So , tyou want to say to the dog " leave the stick alone" ... then it has to become a non-issue to the dog .. Therefore , mkae it a non-issue in the dog's outlook . again , allow me to put forth my mantras: Sport [Sch , ring , ] is a way of life.  given that - then i have that stick with me alll the time .. the dog eats , it sees the stick , perhaps in time it starts to hear the stick [ that is a bang it away at first then prgress close to the dog ]  and feels the stick  , as the dog eats a gentle stroke .. later leading to a light tap .. i go for a walk , the stick is there ... another words , make the stick meaningless to the dog .. then play rag , set the dog up that in tug/grag work the stick is meaningless just as it is with you all the time !! change the dog's perception the sleeve is more meaningful and offfersd the dog something more so than the stick . again i have seen this a number of times with th bamboo stick in ring.  foe others on the thread .. keep in mind ... a leash , a stick is just extension of your hand ... sometimes it is not a stick problem .,.. it is a hand use problem mistaken for a stick problem  , the stick just happens to be in your hand . let me be clear , i am  not saying this is you specific problem origin jim ... i can't say without seeing the dog .. but i can relate to other readers that this can be ONE  source  of a stick problem , just one , amoung other origins /causes ,  why a dog can develop a stick problem ..   a Second reason is that in using a stick in  a certain manner the dog percieves the stick as a play or prey item . the  behavior on the  sleeve then transfers to another prey item , the stick ,  just another aspect to consider ... and again same tack , chanmgethe outlook of the dog thsat ther stick is irrreelevent and not to be seen as a toy / prey item .. carry it around all the time and teach this to the dog ... the good news : stick problems can be ironed out - the key is to understand from whence the problem arises .. if you do not know why a dog does so,methning , then how can we go about fixing it ? and don't always try to address things on the training field . clean it up first , then go to the protection . just my IMO !!  AP

the prey work is where I'm going with him....my helper ain't getting on the ground....:-) he might not get up:-) I need to clone myself so I can work my own dog....OR where are you:-)

I would go with working in prey, especially since you know he has that edge.  Tell your helper to not be such a sissy.  I would get on the ground with him and work him, I'm not skeerred.

Slam...Ha Ha....you working my dog
I'm not sure how to take that.... Is it cause I'm getting old?     I'd let you work my dog but we're about 5 hours apart.

Jim

 




 

Alphapup,
I agree.

I did have the handler take a padded stick home and get the dog used to it.  I only see the dog on Saturdays when I work it and I do not know what caused the issue.  There was an issue caused off the training field which carried over.  I can tell you the dog does not view the stick as a prey item, just the opposite.  I have several ways to work on stick issues and spent a few months gradually getting this dog over the issue.  For a sport dog this can become a big problem, hence the reason I spent time gradually making the stick a non-issue and had the handler do the same. 


My hand was not the problem as I always touch, pet and praise dogs while I work them when it is appropriate.   

Jim

for what it's worth....I raised this boy stick neutral....from feeding to playing to scratching him with it...:-)

Slam....you can't be as old as I:-)

ron

Ron,
I could be older, but very young at heart.