compulsion training - Page 2

destiny4u:  Another reason not to force a dog into the down position by pushing him down, is because of a dogs oppositional reflex, which means as you push down, the natural reaction for the dog is to brace against or even push up, which is the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish, it's a conflict situation, not conducive to teaching or learning!    

clee - i don't ness. not advocate positive training - i simply think it should be done correctly , if done..  Now i also agree with your outlook too , but remember .. dogs do things for mostly their own self interest and survival .. the trick i found in your path is to have the dog's outlook , it's thoughts come to be the same as what you want. that is the key .. e.g .. i had a dog who would rather possess than retrieve - so i had to put the thought in his mind it was his interest [ in truth mine ] to bring something back to me.--------  same with a dog lying down , not so much to please me .. that is a genetic trait that goes to a dog that can't please you enough to a dog that most often will please iteself.  the affintiy of a sdog to please it's owner is a genetic trait .. some have more the willingness others less. even more sop with a dog of high propensity to please itself , low propensity to please owner.. the trick is to have the dog think lying down pleases himself .. when you ask it to  when in essence he is pleasing you - you have to trick the dog in sorts, to change the mental outlook of these dogs .. one way or another  !! all dogs have different temperamnets and again training has to be tailored to " what is the dog and this relationship predicated on ". a dog with a very high handler affinity and to please is much much easier to train without food/treats IMO.. all depends on the dog

Down

Achieving a down with a prong collar is the easiest of all whether your dog is in a sitting or standing position. Remove the slack from the lead. Give the command “Dimwit Down” and pull down on the lead sharply and firmly. Maintain the pressure in this instance. Resisting? Place your hand or foot on the lead, about a foot from the collar, and push down with your hand or foot while pulling up on the lead. Hold the pressure down until your dog will stay when you release the pressure with your hand or foot. Again lots of praise and pats for doing what you want. Never reward poor behaviour or responses.

If you have to physically lay on your dog to get it down do so. This shouldn’t be necessary with a prong collar. At least I’ve never seen it to be. Do NOT let the dog up until you decide/choose to and give it the release word or another command. If you have to force it down, don’t let the dog up while it is struggling. Doing so will only reinforce that if it fights it can get its’ way.

The key to all dog training. Practice. Practice. Practice. Practice. Consistency. Consistency. Consistency



Got this from here http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/53570-prong-collar-basics.html 
 

is praticing the down while healing on your property for a half hour or so too much? I can get my dog to down usually all the time my new thing is just to get her down while healing if i am walking slow down then get her to down. 

without some kind f food reward or something she is not very interested in it though because up until this point everything has been positive


this is stuff my trainer getting me to work on but like sue said in that article if you try to pull the leash down and say down usually a dog reaction will be to fight agaisnt it.

in the online videos i see a lot of dogs go down so happy and so quick while they are in the heel postion but i assume those dogs have repeated the exercise so much? My dog will do it but very slow.

Ohhhh boy.

Jim, what wrong? I'm learning here! Happy Easter, all.

Destiny4u, what you posted is how I was taught basic obedience for my dog probably 18 years ago except with a choke chain. Then probably 8-9 years ago I took my pup to puppy school for socializing and then trainer required a prong collar. I do not feel like my dogs suffered from those methods, meaning they were always happy to wear the collars, never seemed fearful or upset, the collars seemed to represent excitement and fun. For the pup who was required to wear the prong collar, he already had basic obedience, so there was never an adverse incident. I complied with what the trainers asked because both had as many or more years of training than I had been alive and good reputations, so right or wrong I trusted the experience & reputations. I prefer to use a slip lead on my boys because they do not wear collars at home, so they are the most convenient leash for us, slip it on and out the door. Alphapup, I believe I have been very lucky in that I have always ended up with dogs that have the desire to please and I have tried to maximize their competitive nature with each other to my advantage and to further my agenda, lol. One of my boys has needed firmer corrections than another or my boy who recently passed away, he responded to gentle correction, if he felt I was trying to overwhelm him he would turn his back to me, not shut down at all lol, just let me know he didn't like my way!! I miss that dog everyday, he had enough personality for 5 dogs and I feel like he taught me a lot. Do you have an example off the top of your head of tricking a dog into believing your agenda is their agenda? I understood what you posted to mean that there are merits to many different training methods, finding what works for your pup is best and not get stuck in relying on treats/toys to get your dog to do for you. Please correct me if that is the wrong understanding. I do not have anything against toys/treats training at all, for me I just prefer to use my older dogs and I didn't love some of my original dog training lesson 18 years or so ago. Take care, Jennifer

The OP was struggling to get her dog on a down that is why it is always best to take a couple of steps back and start again, Nothing to do with a Dog that knows it is not meant't for that
Certainly a lot of Dogs do not down in a straight line during a ScH competition and points are lost no matter how fast the dog downs, The best way to teach a young dog is to stop walking put your left leg out in front as a guide tell the dog to down it will lay along side your leg straight, In time it will do it without your leg. Hence it will always down in a straight postition
I have never had any trouble getting a dog to down it is done as a baby but made up in play
Steve1
Very much the same when heeling if you walk along the side of a wall and fence the dog must then heel straight, It must Sit straight to your leg and it must Down straight , It has no option but to keep straight because of the room it has between the Wall or fence and yourself

FWIW, I proof learned commands, yes.

What constitutes a correction is different for each dog, each behavior, and the state of drive at the time.