HD in puppies - Page 3

I know this is not going to make me very popular on this board, but IMO you will never see a dramatic decrease in HD in this breed as long as breeders use NZ's in their breedong programs. To decrease the incidence of HD, one must consistently breed only the best hips to the best hips generation after generation. Unfortunately, often the best hips do not belong to the best producers of other traits needed for the working GSD. I believe the percentage of HD in the Amlines is a lot less than it is in the imported lines and I think that's because they place a lot more emphasis on breeding the best hips to the best hips. Those with the most success never breed dogs that have hips that are near normal, they select for goods and excellents. In other large breeds where hips take the highest priority, they do not get nearly as much HD as those breeding GSD's using NZ's with NZ relatives. Not saying breeders should not use the NZ's, just saying like begets like and it's very unlikely that the percentage will ever decline as long as that is happening. Having spent 35 years in another large breed where there is also a lot of HD and having almost eliminated it in my own line, I personally would never buy a foundation bitch or breed to any dog with an NZ rating. I am convinced that the best to the best is the way to go, but given the bar is set so high by most of you who are breeding for titling, I don't know if you will ever be able to put so much emphasis on hips. There seesm to be so many other things to consider. In the ideal world, the breed worthy dogs would have it all, but this ain't the ideal world LOL.

Why would your statement not make you popular Blitzen? You have the right to an opinion. I follow your way of thinking and wish to add this: Only 33.23% of the registered gsd's are being x-rayed. From these x-rayed dogs, only 57.24% receive the quoation HD-1 = "perfect hips". (57.24 % from the x-rayed dogs! In view of the total amount of dogs registered, the figure is only 19.02%) You may add a couple of percentages for the HD-6 Ausland dogs, but no more then 3.49%) We need to ban not only the HD-3 = noch zugelassen, but all HD-2 (who also in reality in many cases show HD-3 hips) and upwards. Breeding with dysplastic hips is an offence in most countries' laws an thus illegal.

I agree with Jantie in many aspects, and I had talk with people around here about the real percentual of normal and fast normal dogs. Now I am trying to select my dogs focusing on that, but I think it should be a political act, leading to a improvement in our breed. There must be a way to measure the breed value of dogs outside Germany!

The whole story for you José: HD-1 = 57.24% HD-2 = 23.42% HD-3 = 10.94% HD-4 = 4.15% HD-5 = 0.76% HD-6 Ausland = 3.49%

ok folks, time to put this into some perspective here. For years over 30% of the anual puppy crop gets a-stamped in Germany. Less than 5% of that receives a failing grade. Lets add about 10-15% of the anual puppy crop to that number of failing grade, from pups that have been prescreened or screened but the x-rays were never submitted for a-stamp because they did not look good enough to pass. That is just a personal guess based on what we usually come across when evaluating young dogs we look at. A good half of all pups sold go to pet homes who will usually never get prescreened or a-stamped. So these dogs naturally never show in such statistics. But these numbers pretty much fill the gaps. Neither SV nor OFA require that once an x-ray is taken it must be submitted. The biggest flaw in these statistics, because if all x-rays taken would have to be sent in, the stats would be far more representative than they actually are. In comparison the OFA shows a failing grade of all x-rays submitted for GSDs between 1998-2001 of 16%. Interesting that they are not showing data up to 2004, though they do have it available. Their overall average shows 19% of dysplastic GSDs. Remember, these numbers do not yet include any of the x-rays that never get submitted because at the time of x-ray it is already clear that the dog will not pass. Ask your own vet. He will probably agree that about 10-15% of x-rays taken at their clinic never get submitted to OFA. Between 1998-2001 just slightly over 11thousand GSDs have been OFA'd. In 2003-2004 the AKC has registered a total of about 90thousand GSD pups. Lets just say conservatively that from 1998-2001 the anual average was 40thousand pups.Then that means on only 7% of the AKC born GSD pups were screened for HD by the OFA! Even if more GSDs have been screened in recent years, you will not go past a 10% mark. Compare that to well over 30% of SV born pups! If you also take into account that people have been screening for HD since 1966 and after 40 years of screening and at least over 20 years of selective breeding, HD has not been eliminated yet, it is safe to say, that we will never see it disappear altogether. The SV states on their own website a fact that is also widely accepted in regard to HD - and that is that 30% is inherited and 70% is acquired. There is NO proof that breeding only HDa1 or OFA excellent to each other will only produce clear hips or will eliminate HD over time. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. Since such breeding practises have not brought the desired results, breeders have steered away from them in favor of the WHOLE dog, not just bits and pieces of a dog puzzled together. Especially the large and successful breeders stick to what proves to be successful. If HDa1 + HDa1 would = HDa1, or at least no less than HDa2, be assured, it would be common and absolutely undisputed practise today! Breeders with some 3000 pups they have produced in a life time of breeding should know. Germany has several of them, who have not yet found the perfect formula for producing HD free pups all the time. That sounds like a lot of puppies but when you average that to 10 litters a year over some 40 years of breeding that is about what you get. Or for a few litters per year more for 25 to 30 years of breeding, when your spouse also has a kennel name... (SV kennels are limited to 10 litters per year).

We also know that the individual HD status of any dog could well have been the role of the dice on the day of the evaluation. We have had several cases ouselves, where poor quality x-rays would have made for a worse result than necessary, and re-screening the dog at a vet that produces better x-rays put a dog previously considered not to pass in an a1 or a2. Quality of x-ray makes a huge difference. Not every vet x-rays well. The role of the dice is another disturbing factor. We have had several dogs where the examining vet was sure the dog would get a1. After you have seen many an x-ray you also develop an eye for what is good and what is not, so this was an opinion shared with the vet. We have had several dogs that we agreed would get a1 came back a3. Several, these are not isolated incidents. A good friend is currenlty fighting the case in which a well known clinic specializing in HD x-rays and whose predictions are usually dead on, submitted an x-ray they had predicted would be a1, but came back as a3. How can two specialist opinions be so different? The fact that it is nearly impossible to fight such a decision with the SV means that the true quality of this particular dogs hips will never be known. At best the SV will budge a little and upgrade to an a2. This time the dog is too valuable to just accept the SV decision without any complaint. But realistically, we are not putting too much hope into this to even see the SV budge at all. Now one could argue that the OFA or other evaluating bodies have stricter evaluations. The OFA for example states on their website that HDa1 hips cover OFA grades Excellent, Good and Fair. How then can it be possible that an a3 dog comes back with OFA Good? Happens quite a bit. Anyone who has imported a dog with an a-stamp and has also had it OFA'd, please post your experiences. One of the vets I use in Canada, who also confirms about 10-15% of their x-rays never get sent in to OFA because they would only receive a failing grade, has had cases of previously failed hips that they have contested and they have come back with OFA Good. How can any of this be, if it is supposed to be such an exact science?????? Simple answer, it is not! There are many conflicting studies out there on the subject. One study concludes this is right and the next study contradicts exactly that new finding. The ZW provides a help in getting an idea how the line perform. That tool would be far more accurate if all x-rays ever taken, including prescreens would have to be submitted to become part of the statistics. Even, or especially the ones that don't look so good. At a minimum all those taken at one year of age should have to be submitted. Not likely going to happen though. As long as the hips are evaluated by people, mistakes will be made, personal opinions will influence these evaluations, and we will never get reliable results. As long as people still overfeed their pups, feed rich, high protein level puppy food too long, stress a young body too much, work a young dog too much, as long as that happens we will never know exactly what breeding factors will improve hips and which are acquired. But it is curious to mention that people who keep their growing pups lean (lean and well muscled, not thin and undernourished), feed a good quality food, who exercise properly without overdoing it, that these people have fewer problems with HD than those who do not stick to such a regimen.

Genetics certainly play a role. Just not to the degree that we are only reduced to breeding a1 hips to a1 hips. Breeding a low ZW dog with a1 hips to dogs with less than perfect hips also gives you insight into how this dog is actually producing, gives you an idea what is in the background. Is the dog improving on hips regardless of the breeding partner? Or will certain combinations not produce the desired results? That is part of breeding too. There are between 350 and 600 genetic diseases known to affect dogs, if the specialists could ever agree on one number. If we'd try to eliminate them all we'd have no dogs left to breed with. There is more to a dog than hips. A good breeder friend of mine told me several years ago: The sum of all diseases in a population will always remain the same... Meaning you may be successful in eliminating one, but inadvertantly have just created several new ones. When breeding, we should always do so with the whole dog in mind. When you compare SV to OFA stats, IMO the SV is doing something right. They have a rather high level of dogs screened within their population, they have a very high level of HD free dogs. They provide records on some FIVE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND GSD! They provide many useful tools for the owners, and they make breeding with only cleared animals mandatory. Try to find a SV pedigree that is not at least 6 generations HD a-stamped. You only have about 10% of the SV population with a3 hips to begin with and very few of them will ever enter the breeding pool. Popular opinion makes sure of that these days. It has become a self regulating mechanism. To exclude also a2 dogs is a dead end road IMO. In all these years and the many many dogs that have crossed my path, I have not come across a single case of debilitating HD. I have come across some very bad hip x-rays (less than 5 actually), but none of these dogs were deblitated or disabled or even lame. They live good lifes in pet homes. If you are aiming to produce 100% trouble free pups, then that is just unrealistic. There is a new book out on the subject by Fred Lanting. Still have not had a chance to read it yet. But considering his past expertise in the matter I think that would definitely be a good read on the subject. Order Info: http://www.mrgsd.com/special-pre-publication-price.html

Good point H.D., GSD really are not been afected to the point of not to have a good life. I agree we must worry about ather deseases too. When I talk we got to do something about HIP DISPLASIA, I really mean that. Despite the fact we can see an improvement in Germany, in other countries we just dont have the HDZ for every dog, unless the sire and dam comes from Germany. We need a reference like the HDZ system. I think the HDZ for itself would work, but other countries will need the recognition of their results for Xrays, as well as the insertion of their dogs in the HDZ system. If this happens every dog will have a HDZ number and breeders will have an important instrument against this desease in particular.

nobody here not know anything about Elbow Dysplasia? Can somebody help me here? I think is also important to focus that enegry on Elbow Dysplasia as well... since we have that in the breed as well.

Elbows are also important, I think the same solution to Hips must aply to Elbows. We only got to find the way, then it will just be a matter of time!