what started the german vs. am lines? - Page 1

i was just wondering about the german vs. am lines. I have one german and ger bred with am line. they are both great dogs. i have shown both and both do well. I was just wondering about how all this came about. I don't want to tick anyone off i was just interested in the answers. thanks.

Just look at them. Stevie Wonder can see they are altogether different breeds!

I think it's just a matter of personal preference...just like boxers or briefs...ha..each side will argue til they're blue in the face over which is better and why....

money started the debate. each wanted the market for them selves. the recent debate, starting in the1974 area, was brought on by the overbearing attitude from the German promoters. the Americans knew they had the AKC support. name calling from both sides, Americans were at a all time low with health issues, temperment, and so many in the breed no longer had the look of a German Shepherd. they are/were somewhat like a Greyhound. the import(show lines) with its very good structure and character was a challenge to Americans, rather then admit a little out cross might bring some improvement, they went childish, and attack the roach back some of the imports have. the rub in your face by older breeders who had seen the imports of yrs past, was more salt in the wound. both sides were at fault, but it seems to have worked itself out somewhat.

What's worked out ? -- a few people are attempting to cross these two very divergent types of dogs--I can tell you that I was doing that in the early 80's because I never felt that "movement was everything" Like the Americans -- nor that you had to be an obsessive ball crazy biting maniac like some"European" dogs. The differences are based on different breeding philosophy -- "They don't Run on their Ears" - is the American Way - and opens the door for everything from floppy ears, to bad feet, to horrible pasterns to heart problems and bloat and still bad hips and bad elbows -- But if they can medicate them enough and get them around the ring enough times to win a few trophies and get a couple litters out of them before the keel over - that's okay !! Shy becomes "sensitive" and if the dogs are not the proper shape -- then it's time to change the standard !!! It's pretty simple isn't it. What, you want a big name breeder to use a german dog to improve the headpiece and lose some of their precious angulation ! Yeah, like that's gonna happen. It's not an east task to mix these two gene pools - they are very different -- There are a few good, sturdy, sound, smart American Bred dogs - I owned one that lived to be over 14 -- but she's one in a million. 25 years ago when a few East German dogs were "getting through" people looked at them and said - gee - they're very different from our dogs - Well, duh -- did it ever occur to them that those were the "correct" ones - and their's were wrong !!! We bred to an East German Dog in the early 80's and "friends" thought we were nuts -- in less than 5 years when there were more imports from the EAST - and they were becoming more popular - then those same people wanted to breed to East German dogs -- We did it because it made sense -- they did it because they didn't want to be "left out" (of the market place) all about bucks to them !! Same for the people that sit on the fence between Am/German - they don't want to "upset" anybody - anybody that might buy a puppy from them - so they have a little of everything.

I have had german lines since I was a small child in the 60s. I have watched the divergence of the two lines. I see and meet american line dogs and feel empathy for the victims of this type of breeding. Most are skidish and look pitiful to me. I keep my thoughts to myself when encountering their owners, however, this is not always recipricated. Here is an example of what I consider to be a great female http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/350582.html The few who want dogs for sport have produced some dogs I would never consider owning in the city. I have switched to show lines over the past few years. I am observer, not an expert. This is only my opinion. There are several on this board with vast knowledge and breeding experience. I continue to learn from them. Fo to a local GSD club and watch the dogs in the ring...enough to make you weep.

Most Amercian Show breeders do not find any VALUE in using imported stud dogs - or purchasing good quality brood bitches for $10,000 to IMPROVE what they think are already wonderful moving dogs. I have no need or desire to encourage this -- because it is difficult to cross -- you get popcorn -- some of it sticks in your teeth -- and many will be quick to blame that lousy German stud -- because no problems could possibly come from their precious "Princess Beauty" - So if I encounter a SERIOUS novice who go stuck with something that has at least some merit and generations of good hips and soundness that can be improved upon - I would steer them to the proper German dog automatically. Other than that - who cares. Nature will take it's course, and when the dogs can't walk, can't breed normally, have more than 2-3 puppies -- they will still be a long way from admitting that there are problems. Job Evans described the German Shepherd as a "Serious Medical Liability" and by and large - they still are !! But if you buy a nice puppy out of wonderful AKC Champions and it bites a kid before it's 1 year old and it has seizures before it's 18 months and it's dead of Cancer by 2 -- what will you do - go back to the same or similar breeder and say - gee - Fido was such a sweet dog - too bad he was so sick -- can we have another ? Sure - what's better than planned obsolesence -- They come around every 2-3 years for replacements - that's better than every 12-14 years, ain't it. ?

to the person who said stevie wonder could tell the difference i didn't say i couldn't see a difference i was just wondering about what started it. i have had 2 am dogs one was a one in a million female who lived til 13 yrs. she never had a health problem. but i wouldn't go back to any am bred dogs cause my 2 one lasted only to the age of 6. he had everything hips elbows. the breeders are into shows and they checked hips on the breeding stock.there is more to the shepherds then just gait. i own 2 shepherds now. my male is out of gero vom prinzenrain he is great and a joy to live with. my other baby is mix of am and german lines and have had no problems. her breeder is into the training and total dog not just run around a ring. i agree i don't like lots of the show dogs today where the rears are on the ground. wouldn't last a day in the real world of work. but this is just opinion nothing more.

Pineridge says, What's worked out ? -- a few people are attempting to cross these two very divergent types of dogs-- we have several different events, AKC shepherds, wda shepherds, USA shepherds, working lines, protection lines, looks like some things have been worked out. the question was what started the discussion. I have no interest in crossing lines. this brings problems to the lines with fewer problems. most of those knowing what shepherds are, have imported a couple and are working with them. I'm not up on the east lines, but from what I see of the few I've come in contact with, a person can do better conformation and character.

One thing that becomes very apparent is the American GSD's (I use GSD loosely when describing American lines) lack of ability to do the work they were originally bred to do, Schutzhund. If you go to the pedigree data base here and follow the lines all the way back you see a very obvious difference between the American GSD, show line German GSD, and working line GSD. The most notable changes took place around 2 time periods. Around 1920 the dogs began getting larger but still had a strong straight topline, then aroung the 1950's the back started sloping and later became very dramatic. The straight topline working dog is making a strong comeback because of it's ability to perform Schutzhund and police work without a lot of the accomanying ailments that the very closely bred showlines have. A lot of the Belgian and East German lines are being crossed in and producing IMO a very superior GSD that more closely identifies with what was originally intended for this breed before all the irresponsible breeding for movement and profit came along. With these differences in dog type comes the natural prejudices of the proponents of each type, of which I am guilty myself, however I feel very justified in my own prejudice and have no regrets. One very sad thing in all types of animal breeding is the dishonesty and carelessness in breeding that I have seen for the sole motivation of profit and ego. This has ruined so many great breeds, in particular the GSD. At least that is the way I see it :-D