Long Coats In The Showring - Page 3

ALMOST every bloodline within the German Shepherd Dog breed carries a "long-coat" factor gene. There are very few "individual dogs", males or females that don't produce the factor. If fact,...the dogs that I personally have seen produce litters without the "coat-factor",...have also produced a very "short or tight coat"....which is ALSO not a desired trait. They are a herding breed,....and at one time....many years ago....long-coats were also used for breeding. This is one reason the "coat-factor" is so strong in the bloodlines. I think long-coat puppies are very beautiful! I don't think they should be used in breeding programs. As a breeder that shows and competes in this breed,...I would never repeat a breeding of two particular dogs that produced a large percentage of long-coats in a litter. As for judge's opinions about(puppies) in a show ring.....every judge has one! We as participants pay for their opinions on the day of the show........win or lose....they ARE just...one person's opinion about a particular puppy. We as knowledgeable breeders should already be certain about the quality of the puppy/dog that we have decided to walk into the ring with. We cannot be "kennel blind".....KNOW the standard of your breed! KNOW that the dogs that you buy, breed and show are good examples of the breed.........then no matter what comment is made from the judge or persons at the ring.....you can be confident that you have a good dog. ALL dogs have faults.....minor AND major. YOU MUST LOOK AT EACH DOG AS A "WHOLE". thank you for letting me state my opinion......

There is no such thing as a dog (or a specific breeding) that produces "a lot" of longcoats. Either a dog carries the gene or he/she does not. It's possible to repeat a breeding that produced, for example, 5 longcoats out of 10 puppies and in a repeat litter of 10 only get 1 or 2 or maybe even none if the planets are in the right alignment. Compare it to flipping a coin 100 times, odds say that there will be 50 heads, 50 tails. However, the first 10 tosses COULD yield all heads or all tails - ie all stock coats or all longcoats (or any combination of the 2). Just because there is a high percentage of longcoats from one breeding does not mean you will get the same split in a repeat mating. It's all about playing the odds. Not repeating a breeding that produced a "high percentage" of longcoats will never reduce the incidence in any line. The only way to breed out the gene is to not use a longcoat or any dog that has ever produced a longcoat or not breed a known carrier to another known carrier or longcoat keeping your lines free of long coats and the gene for at least 5 generations. Using longcoats for breeding, even if one parent has a stock coat, means that ALL resulting puppies will be carriers of the longcoat gene regardless of whether or not they themselves have longcoats. Stock coated littermates of longcoats will have around a 25% change of carrying the gene; approximately 25% will not carry the gene. A simple recessive is an easy gene to breed out and to identify. However, you must make sacrifices. You get a litter with long coats, both parents carry the gene. Breed a longcoat to a longcoat, all the puppies will be longcoats. In other breeds where long coats are not encouraged, some still use them for breeding since they feel that they need the longcoat gene to give future generations a correct double coat. I see to breed a longcoat or to not breed a longcoat as a personal choice. There are worse things going on in the GSD world. I would be opposed to showing or breed surveying a longcoat since I believe it would prevent the breed from surviving in its natural environment. Survival characteristics are too often overlooked.

Blitzen, PLEASE inform me of ONE bloodline in the West German lines of the breed that does NOT carry the "coat-factor" breed???? I have not found one....? In the past 15 yrs...I've seen "coats" from all the lines. And I have repeated breedings from a "largely coated litter" and received the same results.......... I also have bred these same parents to other dogs and have NO coats??!!........however;...those same studs have produced coats in other litters. Your reply is very imformative......the same type of info is in Malcolm B. Willis's book on Genetics. My opinion is simply from experience. I have only found one female that no matter who she was bred to...she produced no coats....but her sister did. And because of the SV rules,...we personally do not breed long coats.

Well written & said Blitzen. Just one thing which I disagree with but think it was a slip on your part rather than a mistake... that is the percentages given in the last sentance of third paragraph. It is my belief that the mathematical percentage of short to long coats, carriers and non carriers in any litter from short coated parents both carrying the long coat gene is as follows:- 50% Short coated carriers, 25% Short coated non carriers and 25% Long coated. What is worrying is whilst attending the Sieger Show in Ulm this year I saw a male being paraded about who despite his excellent, professional 'Hair Cut', was obviously a long coat!! I was informed this male had apparently done quite a lot of winning in Germany..?! Boy do they have problems with their SV judges if some of them cannot tell the difference!! Best Regards Sue B

I agree with you Sue regarding the "tricks" of showing and breeding the "coats" in Germany. We have a friend who bought 2 puppies from Germany and one was obviously a coated puppy....but the pedigrees were for normal coats. My opinion on the "coated" puppies were simply to state......I know of NO complete blood line that does not carry the "coat-factor" from the West German lines. And I am talking 4 generations back. My opinion is from my own experience. Blitzen......maybe you can shine some light...I am always open to other educated opinions. ***example #1 *** (2)female sisters(litter-mates)from a litter of NO coats....1st female bred 3times...no coats. 2nd female bred 3times..no coats.....4th/last litter...9 puppies/2 coats. ALL stud dogs used have produced coats in other litters. ****example #2 ****(1)female bred in Germany. 1st litter: 13 puppies/5 coats. 2nd litter: 6 puppies/ no coats...however; stud dog used has coated puupies in other litters. 3rd litter: 8 puppies/ 3coats....same stud as first litter. These females are since retired.

Blitzen, I'm afraid my original reply has gone in the wrong direction.......my apology. I am not being sarcastic or "nasty". I enjoy your comments,..they are always interesting! I agree with you. My examples are just experiences that I myself have had.......even trying to NOT produce coated puppies...it just happens. I do own Malcom's book and I was "praising" you because he also states alot of info on the gene. Please forgive my replys if they seemed "agressive"...they are not meant to be. SueB...I also enjoy reading your replys as well! Regards, Robin

It looks like some of the posts to this thread have been deleted. Not sure why.

unless i am supposed to respond back to lizis post again, that wasnt deleted, perhaps they should delete her post too... actually i dont even have the time to write again lol i will see lizi borden at the NASS and i gotta get my dogs packed and get going! see ya'll when we get back :) regards, Dawnmarie

Not sure what's going on here, Dawnmarie. Maybe some don't want others to know about how longocats are inherted or that some actually ship them to the US as show and breeding prospects. I'd think if the mods were trying to save bandwidth, they'd look at deleting all the really old archives and the repeat ads. See you at NASS...........

lol i hear ya.... i didnt leave yet i have so much shyt to do still.. a few of my posts are gone, just the stupid lizi borden/dawnmarie debates did anyone plan a meeting? if i dont see a post will make one quick see u there!! dawnmarie