BLOAT/GI PROBLEMS IN CERTAIN LINES - Page 1

I am doing some research for a future breeding and I am looking for factual information regarding Bloat/GI/Torsion problems for the following dogs. Scott von Deodatus Wallace aus Agrigento Jango vom Fürstenberg Basically what i am looking for if there has been a proven consistent pattern for producing the above issues. Please,ONLY if you have first hand experience with these lines and bloat, or know someone who has that wont mind sharing this with me, please email me at vonwymargsd@optonline.net Best Regards, Dawnmarie

Gee - you're asking a lot -- not that it's not a good question -- but ....... it takes TWO to tango. Better you look up some of the progeny and see how OLD they are. My young male is a Jango grandson -- His mother is the Jango daughter, and she is over 7 years now. She is V rated, with an HGH and has had many quality puppies and large litters with various males. The quality he produced seems to "run deep" as every time I run across a Jango grandkid - they look pretty good to me. So I gotta figure he's passing on some good qualities -- I'm certainly not "connected" enought to the German insiders to know who's bloating or producing it. Old rule of bloat is if the kids live past 5 -- they're not going to bloat -- it's not necessarily true -- but it's a "rule of thumb", I guess. But, you gotta worry about BOTH sides of the family, of course.

i know my bitches side prety well, and no known cases (doesn't mean she is free of it, but dug deep couldn't find it and yes the puppy homes we dont always hear...so i cant say 100%) and yes it takes both genetics.. but some are "stronger" producing it than most.. and consistent with different bloodlines. Jango himself bloated twice... and then i had "heard" of many progeny... but then again, could be hearsay.. thus the reason for "documentation" or "proof" by folks first hand. its not about harming anyone's rep, just looking for private honest info. That's why i figured private email would be best so it doesn't turn into something evil and hurtful to anyone with those lines... i have no problem admitting things in my dogs lines... but some dont like to share because there are evil people who use this to hurt breeders for the wrong reasons. i dont like people like that. any time someone asks me about what i know first hand in my lines, i share all i know :) some problems folks will accept in their lines.. some things folks wont. i can deal with ED more than i could Bloat, i dont want either but if i could pick one, i could deal with ED better. thanks tho :) Dawnmarie

Yup, its great to get information on stuff like this -= just difficult, as you say to get people to talk. I din't know about Jango, probably because I only started "catching up on German show lines" last year when I bought a puppy. I got it when the "timing" was right - and because I trust the breeder 1,000 percent I got what I got - and he's absolutely wonderful -- Now 15 months old. His father is Zarno - I call him the "forgotten" 1/2 brother to Yasko. I used to know tons of stuff about American Show lines -- and knew all the "well known" bloaters and heart problems, that nobody would ever admit the fact that they existed. But hey, when your GRANDCHILDREN are still bloating - and you're the only common denominator - guess what -- there's a theme here !! When you pick up a pedigree of 15 dogs that bloated before they were 3 or 4 and the only common ancestor is SELECT SUPERSTUD, ROM - then you can drawn some conclusions. But it's not heriditary, right ?? Yeah, sure. We had one issue with bloat - but it was more of an accident, as the dog got into the food and ate way too much of it -- next morning - bingo -- looked like he swallowed a basketball (whole) -- Thankfully, we were able to save him - We don't feed any extruded foods, (not that you can't bloat on something else) and small quantities, of course -- But I don't think anything of letting my dogs "run around" after they eat -- knock wood - we've had basically, good health, and lonegvity.

I think that bloat is more likely to be caused by feeding complete foods than anything genetic,all the soya and gas producing ingredients in the food.I have been feeding BARF for 6-7 years now and have had no bloat problems whatsoever and I have Wallace/Jango bloodlines.Feed naturel food you must get back to foods canines eat normally regardless of a little inconvenience and a little more time to prepare,far better than the terrible bloat problems.Try it and see the difference,in constitution and condition.

Cheers Pineridge, Haven't seen you here for a while - how are things? Despite 'research', I remain very sceptical about the degree of directness of link made above between bloat and bloodlines. I believe, even more so than for dysplasia, that a whole host of factors are responsible, and then in a very random way at that - environment, food fed when and how, timing of physical exertion in relation to feeding, effects on animal's general physiology from domestication and so on. This business of avoiding certain bloodlines seems to me to becoming a bit of an urban myth. We simply don't know enough. As 'proof' I again cite that cattle industry where its been a problem since domestication began. They would have identified and culled 'wrong' bloodlines centuries ago if there were such a significant connection. Not much sentimentality there! Don't get me wrong: genetics may well play a part, but host of other factors probably play far larger part. Anyhow, that's only my tuppence worth. Regards.

Feeding RAw, Natural or BARF will not protect your dogs form Bloat. I am a vet tech at t alocal Veterinary Emergancy Clinic and I've seen several bloats that were fed raw, fed multiple times a day, fed BARF, fed free choice, fed you name it. Actually the only thing that seems to predispoase dogs to boat taht has been researched is their temperment. Dogs of nervous temperments, prone to anxiety, tnd to be poor eaters adn kennel runners. In nearly all the cases studied at Purdue, the majority had very little food in their stomachs. We always lavage the stomach during surgery and often find very little food. Cattle bloat is totally different. Cattle, sheep and goats can all bloat but they are ruminants(multiple stomachs) so their digestive tract is not the same as a dogs. Horses, pigs and dogs are all animals with stright digestive tracts and one stomach. Bloat is no where near as critical in ruminants as it is in dogs or horses. Anyone who has been around dog breeds that have a tendency to bloat, recognizes taht tehere seems to be some genetic predispensation to bloat. Susan

Pine, Hi, i started in Am Bred too and i still know the lines that i would stay clear away from there... but i also do feel that sometimes certain things can cause a dog to bloat where it might not for a regular reason. Susan, i heard that there is thing called the "Pyloric valve" and this area can have a genetic defect thus making certain GI issues genetic.. is this true? i never used to believe that Bloat was solely genetic.. but then i kept seeing certain lines produce more and more of it... but part of me still thinks that certain things can contribute, because why would some dogs bloat where there isnt any link any where else in the pedigree? i am a FREAK about feeding and water and activity... i have friends that think i am insane and feel that i cannot control if the dogs will bloat because its all genetics.. but if i can help to try NOT to have it happen.. then dammit i am going to try to prevent it

i didnt mean to say dammit harsh LOL i wasnt being harsh to anyone just myself in an endearing kind of way :)

Cheers Firethorn, Generally, I find comments above quite interesting, specially the connection to temperament. Also, when you say that bloat can occur without any food in stomach, I presume it's strictly because of an undue build-up of gas only (as for all bloat?). As a vet tech, and I feel I may be correct here, I'm rather surprised you didn't note any such explanation! I also have a few niggling other little problems with statements made. Please accept I'm not trying to be difficult for the sake of it. Simply trying to match information I picked up over the years with your assertions(?). Happy to stand corrected. You categorically state: 'Actually the only thing that predisposes dogs to bloat that has been researched is their temperament'. Now, I have minor problem therewith because I can remember reading articles in various magazines over the years that referred to similar research being done at different times in various countries and which cited many reasons apart from that of temperament. In fact, under Feeding topic, only day or two ago, a contributor noted such research by one of official American bodies. Am I missing something here, Firethorn? You equally categorically note: 'Cattle bloat is totally different'. It seems to me that as bloat is generally a matter of gas pressure within a stomach, the situation is actually quite similar in all vital respects - even if a cow had a dozen stomachs? This is followed by: 'Bloat is nowhere as critical in ruminants as it is in dogs or horses'. This surprises me, Firethorn. Have you mentioned this to the feedlot people when they change their feed from one kind to another. Or, the farmer who's been feeding animals hay, and then releases them into new fresh pasture? (I may even contact the farmer I spend childhood vacation with and inform him that all his constant concerns in this respect were absurd - I'm sure he'd jump from his coffin for this!). Or, the immense drive to shave every needless cent from their costs in their operations, including those due to bloat. In connection with other matters, I had occasion to look into the cattle industry some years ago. Bloat loomed large in their concerns, and untold research to solve the problem over many years just doesn't quite jell with the insignificance you seem to give it. And finally: 'Anybody who has been around dog breeds that have a tendency to bloat recognises that there seems some genuine predisposition to bloat'. Well, problem solved - why do any research at all? Why worry? I do hope it is 'genuine'. Does such an unscientific statement accord with introductory 'I am a vet tech at local Veterinary Emergency Clinic' though? Logic dictates, of course, that you mean animals genetically predisposed to temperament problems, for otherwise relevant statements cannot exist side by side. With your useful conclusions I hope you plan to define somewhat more precisely in a subsequent post the nature and degree of the temperament problems that figured in the valuable mentioned research. Hopefully, once so properly identified as per your research, we can round up these animals, and have done with the problem once and for all! Thank you for your informative input.