Socialization of the Schutzhund Puppy - Page 1

A

Bancroft,

I believe the schutzhund dog you describe exists, but it exists at a level that perhaps may be a level  or two above the dog  you will most likely be training.  Schutzhund does not create aggressive dogs that are unstable in public.

Trainers that train to compete make training the dogs focus in life. They are maintained in a controlled enviornment and look forward to the time they go to the field and get a chance to perform. Most trainers agree excessive socilazation, toys, unstructured activities take some edge off the dog's desire to perform. This is a generalized concept of a subject that can be discussed at length and contains many variables.

For most it's a personal decision between the relationship they want with their dog as a companion and their desire to excell on the field. This decision is influenced by their dogs abilities and character. Some dogs have enough ability that it's difficult to affect their talent and others just don't have the ability where no amount of enviornment control will enhance their performance. Add to that all dogs are different and performance is based somewhat on their relationship with you.

So there's no real answer to your question without seeing you, your training abilities, knowing your expectations and seeing what your dog has to offer. Then you need to find someone that can take those components and see if your expectations can be met. This takes a knowledgable trainer.

Rest asured there is a German Shepherd that is just what you want out there. It's just a matter of putting the pieces together for success. Remember puppies are a crap shoot and be prepared to achieve 75% of your expectations your first time out and be happy. Good personality is easier to live with in the long run. Don't let someone talk you into getting something you can't handle just because you mention personal protection. Try to seperate personal protection from schutzhund as there is a split concept between the two. You may be miscommunicating what you want and get something you don't need if you send mixed messages..

I would start the socialization now and never stop! It gives your dog a better mental outlook on life!

A fully trained Shutzhund dog is very much able to live in the social world. But Yes the handler has to have correct control over the dog if you want to have a walk in the evening and let your Sch trained dog have a walk off leash with you. The strong prey drives in certain bloodlines always can cause issues with small children I strongly feel that please talk to the breeder and list out your specific goals plus evaluation of your own lifestyle to suit the dog for your needs. Maybe you just want to participate at the local club l;evel. If that is the case you may need a different kind of sog versus if you want to compete in the BSP.

Both the dogs for the different purposes would be very different. It is all a game of genetics and bloodlines. If your breeder is well versed of his bloodlines he will be able to give you an exact "Script" of how your pup would grow up to be. That is assuming the breeder has a very established breeding program and is not breeding his dog with every male and female which comes across.

cheers

It seems to me from reading your post - that you are an intuitive, experienced & talented dog trainer.The descriptions of your current dogs and their level of sociability and adaptability speaks not only of their inborn temperaments but of your efforts to make them 'citizens of the world'.

Perhaps, as an aside, you'd be better off GIVING advice to folks in the "world of schutzhund" as well as seeking it from old hands.

My personal opinion is that this is the wrong forum to address the very important issue - you bring to the table.

Schutzhund devotees, by the nature of their involvement, are most likely to be unable to objectively evaluate the sport as a whole (in terms of all the consequences on the dogs and world around them). My opiinion is that they will more likely than not base their opinion on FAITH rather than EVIDENCE. They invest vast amounts of energy to achieve certain results and part of the reason for their success - is probably their ability to focus on the task at hand and ignore all the possible nuances of risk and consequences.

Supposition: Does encouraging "biting" make a dog more or less likely to bite?

Tangentially: Does seeking and encouraging prey, defense & fight drives lead to dogs that are  more or less likely to express prey, defense & fight behaviors?

If you were at a park with many folks running around on a field and you had to choose a dog to be running loose among them, would it be one of your current family dogs or would it be a SchH3 working line Shepherd?

You'd be suprised at the answers you'd get.

For many the answer would be that the world should NEVER HAVE ANY DOGS running around loose. I don't suppose you are one of those people.

If I were you, I'd be sure to get a puppy from a litter where you can meet BOTH parents - and the parent dogs are just what you want in terms of ability AND  THE WAY THEY LIVE THEIR RESPECTIVE LIVES. Then I'd discuss, at length, how the people who raised those parent dogs did it - so you could do the same with the pup.

This way, your chances of getting the dog you envision can be maximized.

"Schutzhund devotees, by the nature of their involvement, are most likely to be unable to objectively evaluate the sport as a whole (in terms of all the consequences on the dogs and world around them). My opiinion is that they will more likely than not base their opinion on FAITH rather than EVIDENCE. They invest vast amounts of energy to achieve certain results and part of the reason for their success - is probably their ability to focus on the task at hand and ignore all the possible nuances of risk and consequences."

I'm sorry but that is the best writen load of crap I've ever read. Real dog people in the schutzhund community can give you exactly the answers you are looking for. Not on faith but on the evidence that their years of experience has given them.
 

The answer to your question is yes a fully trained Sch3 dog can be walked with you in the park and you should have less of a worry about them doing something to another animal or passer by. The reason is that you should have your dog trained so well that you have him perfectly under control. You should be able to call him off the most exciting prey ie. a rabit that pops up, another dog, deer whatever.

Bite training will make a young dog more likely to bite at what it sees as a play item that is why you won't see a Schutzhund person with his young dog off leash in a park. But the dog is taught that bitting is only allowed at certain times for certain reasons.

Personally I think any great Schutzhund dog should be clear headed and confident enough to be around crowds of people BUT at the same time, if you don't know that crowd, maybe there is a bad apple in that crowd and your dog will know this, somehow they always seem to know. 

Regardless of the training, any dog who is well bonded with his owner and who senses something off will react in some way.  A well leveled and clear headed GSD, one that would make a great ScH dog, should not just bite out of fear in this situation.

When you train your dogs, you know the looks in their eyes, and when you see that "look" of something is just not right here, and then you take your dog out of that situation so there aren't any issues.

If I know people at a party or my dog club etc, I do not even hesitate to let my dogs run around and greet people, Sasha is SchH3 and Jager will be on his way over the next two years.  Both I know would protect me in an instant; however both are very social, especially my young male who is much more clear headed than my female.  It's odd how dogs just get vibes from certain people, Sasha rarely barks at people as we are driving in the car, but every now and then, she goes off on someone standing on the side of the road and it really makes me wonder what was up with that person. 

An unsocialized GSD is only asking for trouble in my opinion.  I have seen this in the BH, where a guy wanted to keep his dog protective and make him stay away from strangers and people out of the family, well that doesn't work too well in Schutzhund where the character of the dog is tested, and the dog has not been socialized with people, the dog does not pass because he freaked out when the owner left.

I have to disagree with Trafalgar in the sense that this is not the forum to ask such advice, I think there are plenty of people on here with well mannered SchH dogs who can vouch for their reliability and stability of their dogs.

Would I let my dogs run off leash, sure if I know there aren't any other dogs that can be in the area, my dog may be great with dogs and I may KNOW my dog, but that doesn't mean some idiot knows his own dog, and that dog may be very aggressive. 

Are my dogs going to chase down a kid t the park due to high prey drives, NO because I socialized my dogs with little kids from the time both of my dogs were fairly young.  If I did not socialize them, might they be more inclined to go see what that little thing is running around screaming? YES, this is why socialization is so important.  My girl is so gentle with little kids it really surprised me.  That still does NOT mean that I would leave her alone unsupervised with little kids, and that has nothing to do with her being a SchH dog, but everything to do with the fact that she is a BIG dog and as with ANY big dog, there is ALWAYS a possibility of an accident happening, that can lead to big injuries.  You should see my ex-boyfriend's 7 year old daughter grab the kong and tell Sasha "here, foos", she is as tall as Sasha, but that little girl gets such a big kick out of the dog working for her, they heal all around the yard, and Jordan just loves it. 

My club helper Joe Lopez, had his 12 year old daughter out last weekend doing helper

CONT. from above.

A well trained Sch. dog will be less likely to bite on accident than an untrained GSD,Rot, Dobe... and if it did happen which do you think would be able to be controlled more easily?

Socialize your pup as much as you like. The reason you won't see me let my pup socialize by running up to people loose is because most people wouldn't like it. Most schutzhund pups aren't made to be that perfect acting pup of not jumping up... they are allowed to keep their drive. so they are a little more annoying to your normal park goer. Also alowing your pup to run loose where older dogs are out off leash makes your dog seceptible to attack. That is not good for any dog particularly a young Sch. prospect.

I just realized my whole post did not make it:

My club helper Jose Lopez* darn speel check, had his 12 year old daughter out last weekend doing helper work, we used Sasha with Andrea in the blind because we know that Sasha is all about the game of the sport, and just wants the sleeve, she is not going to jump up and bite someone in the face.  Andrea couldn't believe how strong Sasha was, she pulled Andrea around pretty good, and it was really cute!

I think with people who train their dogs be it Sch, or AKC, or Fly ball whatever, they really know their dog's personality and can read their dogs.  If you socialize the young puppy, I believe that you create a more confident dog, and are less likely to have problems later.

It always amazes me to hear people say that in order to have a top level SchH dog, the dog must be only for working, kennel to field, back to kennel.  This is just not true.  Douglas Surber has one of the most spoiled GSDs that I know, the dog sleeps in the bed, and he won the regional championships as well as was selected for the FCI world team as an alternate.

But to take that ONE step further, Ivan Balabanov's TWO TIME WORLD CHAMPION Qenny ot Vitosha, is a very well socialized dog, he lives in the house is great around all people and is a very spoiled dog as well.  Ivan's new dog his GSD Apache also lives in the house, is very social, loves to play, is great with all dogs, even little Samson the Yorkie, and I guarantee you will see Ivan and Qenny at the Nationals this year!

One of the nicest protection dogs in our region is Zito von der Fasanerie (www.ortnervonderpfalz.com) this dog has amazing grips that DO NOT move and he is very powerful, yet this dog is an amazing dog with people. He is super with puppies, and at the same time, if Julie doesn't invite you to come in the yard, Zito won't let you.

So the short to my long post is this, if you want to have a well rounded SchH dog, then PLEASE socialize your dog with everything you can, when I brought Jager home I took him to my mom's as soon as possible to meet the geese and horses, and donkeys. The more your dog knows what the heck things are the less likely they will be to react to something new. 

OOh and if I am hiking, my dogs are ALWAYS on e-collars and that is because they do have high prey drive and little bunnies can run fast and the dogs are all of the sudden deaf, so for their safety of barbed wire fences etc, I have a collar on them, usually the pager button opens their ears up real fast!  Good luck

In addition to what Dog1 said,  I would like to point out that schutzhund is first and foremost about obedience, consequently a  schH III dog should be under the control of his handler at all times, whether a leash is on him or not.  Also schutzhund dogs are usually very excited when on their training field,  but  when off the field, they are very normal.   The overwhelming majority of schutzhund trained dogs, even those at the highest levels of the sport are also family dogs. 

I think Vikram has also offered wonderful advise.  You need  to be sure the breeder of your pup understands your lifestyle so he/she can match you up with the most suitable puppy for your needs.

Schutzhund training does not make our dogs more inclined towards  dog aggression issues.  As far as letting dogs off leash and playing with other dogs, I think that's more to do with the owners personal choices and also depends on where you live.  Where I live it's against the law  to have any dog off your premises without a leash.  I also don't encourage my dog to meet new people because I don't feel it's neccessary, but if you want a real gregarious dog and you want that dog to participate in schutzhund that's easy to do. 

Schutzhund  training does not make dogs mean,  untrustworthy or dangerous.  In fact at every trial the dogs must pass a small temperment test.  All  dogs must  pass a BH before they can compete for their schHI.  They also are temperment tested by the judge at trial.