How many times would be the maximum to see an individual dog/s in a 7 generation pedigree ? - Page 1

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K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 27 November 2020 - 03:11


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 November 2020 - 03:11

Have never bothered to work that out - but stands to reason the 'maximum' would have to extend to including matings in the first and second generations, - e.g. father-to-daughter, grandfather to daughter, - that are far too close for me to ever consider wise. Not quite so worried about e.g. grandfather being the same dog on both sides of subsequent half-sibling matings...

K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 27 November 2020 - 08:11

How about the same dog seen 10 or 12 times within the 7 generations. ?

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 November 2020 - 15:11

If that did not involve the too-close inbreeding in generations one & two, but was somebody attempting some really intensive line- breeding, they would need to be able to justify it, I feel.

To be in any sense acceptable, it would have to be with a dog (and ALL bitches, plus any other dog or two in the mix) which had been proven clear of all frequent conditions (so would have to have had good results for all health tests available at the time) so. eg in GSDs, no HD, ED, DM present. Plus I would want to see him, and them, all proven: i.e. having already produced other litters, to other pairings; and there having so far been no such problems, or anything major that there are as yet no tests for e.g. ideopathic epilepsy, anal fistula. The further back in history you go, the less testing available, and therefore the greater the risks of getting things you don't want.

There would need to be consistency of human involvement, and a recognised & consistent purpose to what exactly they were trying to achieve. It's no good doing such incestuous matings unless you are really trying to produce something definite (eg one particular working trait, or a new Breed, one that 'breeds true' - ie consistently reproduces itself almost exactly, rather than an assortment of obvious mongrels). Even then, this is not 100% likely to be successful, although some features of either conformation or temperament are a bit more easy to 'breed in' than others.  This is the sort of method the 'makers' of a number of dog breeds have initially used, using mostly one dog which had certain features with a variety of bitches from one or more other breeds or types, in order to 'fix' a new breed's features. 

It is much less likely to be used within one established breed (eg German Shepherd Dogs), once very well established (as the GSD is).  Far more likely for this sort of pedigree to occur among the, frequently untested, stock of puppy millers, or Back Yard Breeders, done simply & lazily & cheaply on the ready availability of that one main stud dog, and with little knowledge or forethought. I think you'd find most members here would not touch a pup like that with a 10-foot pole !

Do you have a particular pedigree in mind ?  And is it historic, or current ?


by Nans gsd on 27 November 2020 - 18:11

The dog which is in the pedigree multiple times may be or should be "the best of the best" to be worthy of being that many times. Would have a lot of credentials required.

Can you post the pedigree??

K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 27 November 2020 - 20:11

Thanks Hundmutter and Nans Gsd
I don't want to post the link of the dog
To give the breeder a bad name
All I can say is that it's Working GSD
Heavily linebred on Alf v Kornarsee
There is several dogs lately that have Alf V Kornarsee
His son Gotz in the pedigree
From x 9 to 12 times in the 7 generations.
Not only this
There is another 12 or so dogs in that 7 generation who are also linebred from 3 to 6 times

I've been interested in DDR line dogs for 30 years and follow specifically those lines and the history.

These breeding are done by those who claim to be ethical responsible breeders
Which I don't see how that can be


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 28 November 2020 - 03:11

If it is a working line, there could be a method to what this breeder is trying to do - but ONLY if he is being as careful of his kennel's health (and his customer base) as he is in trying to achieve something particular re drives or antiquated 'DDR bloodlines', or whatever. The pedigree ought to be annotated with things like Xray results, blood tests taken, awards won, etc, which would give you some clue.

You could reach out to ask him/her ?

I would also be tempted to ask what provisions are being made for puppies / junior dogs that do not 'come up to scratch' on whatever it is they are trying to breed for.  Before I started to assume he was not being ethical etc.

Whose to say the dog ISN'T "the best of the best" as far as this breeder is concerned ? They may be able to articulate reasons for that.

We should bear in mind that dogs are nowhere near as fussed about procreating with close relatives as humans are, we need to leave the anthropomorphic reaction aside.


K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 28 November 2020 - 09:11

Hundmutter
Thank you for your reply
I'm not seeking pup from such breeders
There is no reason these dogs are being breed.
Other than they don't have much option, as the majority of breeders have hit a wall.
Unable to diversify bloodlines.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 28 November 2020 - 09:11

It has become clear from conversations here on PDB that there are people who seem so wedded to 'DDR dogs' they will do almost anything, believe almost anything, in order to buy a dog which can claim DDR working blood. Frankly, some of us are unconvinced this is possible anymore. So-called W/L are in many cases so diluted and overbred in the US that any genuine connection to earlier dogs of any 'type' is less than clear or likely. Claims of "Pure DDR" even less. If you have been studying DDR lines, you will doubtless have your own opinion on that.

Being unfamiliar with the breeder(s) involved in this case, I can only take your word for it that you are sure there really is no good justification for what is being bred. I would have thought it likely that it was at least an attempt to invoke as much of the one line as possible, in order to try to recreate that DDR breeding; but I am no expert on whether or not the breeder is on the right path for achieving that or anything close to it; or whether it is being gone about in the right way / likely to succeed in any measure ? Maybe other members will comment.

But you are right in deciding you do not want to buy from them; buyers should always be able to say No, & to walk away from anything that does not suit them, or they do not like the look of. Whether that be aspects of the dogs themselves, or the conditions under which they are kept, or even - as here - if you are out of sympathy with the breeding plan. Plenty of info on here if you research properly about good and bad breeders to buy from, what to look out for etc.


by Das Holz on 28 November 2020 - 19:11

Would not matter his genes change in every dog or bitch he will produce full brothers and sisters are unrelated genetics. But they are more related to their grandparents than to their parents





 


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