Critiques on dogs on the 2004 GSDCA WDA - Page 1

Hello! My name is Cecilia MArtinez from Puerto Rico, for the first time I had sent one of my dogs to a Sieger show in the US, the dog in particular was V Alihazi Gino, he was placed V20 in this show. My intentions are not to be taken in a negative way I want to make a wrong statement nor sound as a nagging owner nor a Blind dog owner..just that I was amazed with the critiques done on my dog and I come to believe that perhaps the judge wasn't really looking to my dog when he did the critiques!! Again I have been in the breed for over 30 years and I have never ever complained for any of my dogs critiques in the past, but this critique amazed me in a big way. "Medium size, medium powerful, good expression, normal withers, firm back, croup is well positioned but should be longer, good front and very good rear angulation, balanced chest proportions, stand with wide toes in front, powerful rear drive with not firm hocks, good front reach, back ligaments are not quite firm during movement" Medium size, medium powerful"- Gino is 68.5 cm!!! is this medium size? Gino is built like a sturdy truck, there is no lankyness at all!!! So what he means by Medium size and medium powerful? "stand with wide toes in front"- This is incredible!! Gino's feet are bult almost like the cat feet to a Doberman, his feet are impressive about his tightness and strengh and parallel position, there are many judgements on him from other judges and they all talk about his beautiful feet hard to find in the breed!!! Not firm hocks and ligaments!!!! Wow, his rear drive and position of the hocks are extremely strong there is no weakness there at all, for he has very short hocks and they stand parallel with great strenght, this is one of his best features, Gino throws dirt in the air when held and pulling to move!!! Could this possible happens, thatr a judge overlooks a dog and perhaps makes statements about another? I'm new to this, jsut that the critiques were so far away from his description..could this happen???..Please again not wanting to create a issue..but couls this possibly happen???

I am sorry to hear what happened to your dog...I am just wondering why those questions were not raised to the person that made the comments in the show???

Excuse me for butting in on this thread, I don't show at SV style shows, just AKC shows and admitting that alone will get me flamed to the brink of death on this board. However, I don't show GSD's, so maybe that will get me off the hook. A critique, be it by an SV judge or an AKC judge is only one man's opinion period. AKC people have a much bigger choice of who to show under and who to not show under. We are not permitted to show under the breeder of our dog nor can any person residing in the same household as that judge handle or enter any dog at any show where that judge is presiding. We are also not permitted to enter under any judge who has ever owned the dog, handled it in the ring more than twice, sold, held under lease or or boarded it within one year of the date of the show. That applies also to all members of the immediate household or immediate family and to the show veterinarian. The show superintendent, or the show secretary where there is no superintendent, is not permitted to enter, act as agent or a handler at the show and no dogs owned wholley or in part by him may be entered either. The same applies to any person residing within the same household. Exhibitors are not permitted to socialize with judges prior to their assignments. Ring stewarts are not permitted to show dogs they own under the judge for who they are stewarting. I realize that such confining rules and regulations would further limit your choices of judges and would not be practical for your style of dog showing. However, a few rules might be a good thing for the future of the breed in this country. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems that there is an awful lot of emphasis on the breed warden's opinions and many of them have direct connections to specific kennels and trainers.

When Messler talks about not firm hocks he is talking about from the side not from the rear. In other words when a dog has contraction of the hock joints as viewed from the side in gait he calls this loose hocks. However he is selective in his criticism. His dog Larus has contraction of the hock joints but he never criticizes him for this. Mind you I beleive a GSD should have a 50% contraction of the hock joint for enhanced forward propulsion, otherwise you are pushing only off the knee joint in the rear assembly. And I love Larus as a truly great animal. Messler calls this loose hocks or in this instance " not firm hocks". Concerning the height of your dog he was measured when he came in the ring.

There were a huge number of entrants who found Henning Setzer's critiques and placements not only bizarre but way out of line (not just somewhat different) from where other SV judges had been placing their dogs all summer long. I did not hear such complaints of Eric Orschler's judging at the USCA Sieger Show in Nashville and his placements were very similiar to how most of our local dogs had been doing under SV judges throughout the summer. There is no question that different judges see different things and that one dog might put a dog up and another not. And of course there is also politics which in the US translates into who does the judge known and/or do breeding business with. Still, once you have shown in front of several judges, you should be able to get a consensus about your dog. If you have shown before several SV judges at local shows and if your dog has been Koered and re-koered, you already have a good idea.

Lenny, Mr. Messler has nothing to do with Larus. It is certainly not his dog? Maybe, you slipped and meant Mr. Orschler? Chris

Klossbruhe, I totally agree with you, I heard the same things. I totally admire when a judge takes a very careful look at dogs presented to them. Mr. Orschler in my opinion, made a very careful review of each dog presented to him. In fact, he helped double handlers outside the ring on when to call for their dogs in order that he could get a good look at their gaiting. In fact, I recently showed un Ricardo Carbajal and his judging is just as detailed-it's great. I would agree the judging of the males classes was not consistent with what the dogs had been placing during the summer months under SV and USA judges. I agree that judges see different things and the variables of politics come into play. All in all, both shows were really good.

Medium size, medium powerful"- Gino is 68.5 cm!!! Under the SV 65cm is the max prefered, 66cm is still acceptable and allowed to show, 67cm is too large and ineligible. Why was a dog 68.5cm even allowed in a show, to beging with?

Well I wasn't there, I wasn't able to attend I had a litter of pups born that same weekend and Mrs. Kathy Blank took him and showed him . I'm an FCI judge and I do not mind being ask my reason for placings, in fact when I judge i do take a close look to all dogs so if someone comes to ask about his dog I do not say anithing ridiculous or erronous statement!!! but some judges do not like to be asked and it is not very adecuate to ask a Judge at that moment either for he hadn't translate the critiques yet.

Hello!! You are completley correct with eveerithing you sayd, eventho this wasn't the situation, my Dog Gino has nothing in connection with this judgfe. I'm an FCI judge qnd in the FCI the rules prevail the samen as the AKC regarding the judging rules as far as what we would call the ettiquete rules. I made this statement for I had showed Gino under soem other specialists and the awkward thing is that especifically what he critisized on Gino are Definitely Ginos best features, other thatn his size which I know it does detracts from some judges.