BSZS GHKLR - Page 12

This was especially informative, and a pleasure to read! In fact, I have been telling others to check this one out. It is really nice that we can still get informative viewpoints from people who are willing to share their expertise as well as others who can take it in without it turning into a monkey brawl with chimps slinging verbal poo.

If you want a roller coaster ride, nothing beats the effort of looking at dogs that you like and realizing how they may fall flat when one strictly considers "improving the breed". And then there is the dog that you own... If one could get to that place where it is not about ego or personal taste. It takes effort and the willingness. In a way, I am happy not to be burdened with the necessity of justifying the money I spend on my dog by getting a "return" on it. (Someone else is spending it on beer and ciggies!) I enjoy my time with my dog and the efforts I put in keeping him active and giving him a rich life. But I still enjoy having my mind blown by the shock of accommodating new viewpoints into what I think I already know, much more so than simply comfortably assimilating.

And I never get sick of looking at dogs!

Very nice thread! What I don't understand is why the front legs are set so far back in the German show dog? I looked at many, many American show champions and also working dogs from other breeds yet still in the herding group and...by far....the german show dog has the most extreme front leg set back. I am just hear to ask why for my own personal knowledge. Maybe Ibrahim can answer...as I know he studies conformation and form to function. Any others? Also, in motion, I still see the bend in the back which I also do not see in other Champions from the Herding group. What is the purpose of this particular curved conformation trait?

It appears that top awarded GSD after top GSD in this show share this trait and I would like to be educated as to why? What function do both serve? Why is the deviation so great between the VA GSD and the American herding group breeds. They are all bred to herd so one would think their basic structure  would be similar. Thank you for your time.

You have a perfectly legitimate question that is probably too broad and basic for this thread. You can get your answers by studying the history of the breed. If you are considering the WGSL males of this topic, don't bother going into the ASL. The German shepherd dog was created to be a medium-sized trotting dog that could travel long distances and have the stamina and agility to do sheep herding and protecting, police and military work, and almost any job you can think of. Jack of all trades.
As to why all herding dogs don't look alike, that is another question that is beyond the scope of this thread. You might as well ask why there are so many breeds of dogs. It is almost more philosophical than practical.
If you want to say how awful these dogs are and it makes no sense that they should look this way, take a number and stand in line. You are not the first. You will not be the last. As for me, life is too short, and there will always be people with too much time on there hands. And since they cannot add anything positive or informational, they rant, rave, and spew nonsense. And they think people will not notice they know jack squat about the topic at hand.

Hi Smiley, so two questions are there, one about shoulder and one about the back.
Shoulder
All pure breeds were developed by human and relative standard was set to serve function of each. German shepherd was designed for optimum efficiency which is maximum ground covered in a single trot with minimum consumed energy. One part of its structure is the front assembly, shoulder being the main part here, setting the blade and front upper arm at 90 degrees is theoretically best angle for allowing front leg to reach maximum distance forward and also backward. In reality it was found later that this 90 degree is actually not attainable and isn't really very correct, some believe the ideal is round 97-100 degrees or even a little more.
To reach this setting of this degree in a shoulder, shoulder blade should be well set back under the withers to make 45 degrees and front upper arm should be pushed forward to make 52-55 degrees, this way together they form up the ideal shoulder of 97-100 degrees.Therefore in a dog that has near to ideal shoulder you see well developed fore-chest and front legs are placed back under the withers not under the neck like that in last picture.
There is no harm and nothing is wrong with a GSD who has such legs and shoulder, on the contrary it is very much desired. But, a big but, this isn't all and it does not automatically mean this type of dog would in fact tend sheep with efficiency and tirelessly as many other parts of structure should also be correct combined with correct inter-relation. To name a few; proportions of length to height and chest depth to front leg, size, weight, rear angulation, back etc combined with stamina and will to work.
In my personal analysis, no other breed can beat a healthy well structured GSD in efficient trot, and I am not talking about current VAs as in my humble opinion they do not represent correct structure as per standard. I have never seen ASL competing with GSL in trot, but by looking at their shoulders the GSL should win.
I will answer the back part and movement in my next comment.

Ibrahim you are 100% correct (like the germans say),I had both ASL and GSL dogs in my "Collection'' over the years, and I stick now only to GSL, and I am really offended by comparison by these two totally to me difference breeds now by some people on this forum especially the AKC people.The ASL dogs do anyone really think can compete in any venue with GSL.because is no debt in my mind they can't .Take them to AD and see how much they can run,I bid 90% can't do even a mile,take them to BH will see how many pass it,and take them to IPO trials,if one out of 1000 passes than will be a miracle.yes there is are problems with the GSL now,but I think we'll start to see some new direction where the breed will go from now on,but for the ASL I don't see a light in the tunnel and the darkness is getting even darker. Now I am waiting for the thunder to hit me.

Back/topline and movement
I will be as simple and straightforward as possible. A sagging back is a weak one, in old days that was a problem seen in quite few GSDs, breeders bred for stronger flatter backs, then it looks like someone bred a nice dog with a little curvature in the back which looked nice and stronger, but later more curvature appeared on backs of GSDs and it became the trend.
Little curvature is no big harm, little means exactly little, back is still straight, almost flat and croup starting point with a visible change of angle is easily recognized, anything other than that is not correct. Why?
Answer: Big curvature in the back lowers the withers, also the rear and makes the croup steeper. From beauty point of view it helps croup melt into the back more smoothly to the point one hardly recognizes where the croup actually starts.
Visible curvature does not allow efficient transfer of force from rear assembly to front assembly, add to that the effect of steep croup, plus flat or low withers to movement and you can see then that this curvature negatively affects the efficiency. One last notice, Asl has a closer back to standard than Gsl and you can notice it does have a more desired stable back while in trot.

Shatterhand, some of us with AKC CH's do train and title in SV venues too. My female is an OB titled AKC CH with her BH and AD. She not only kept up with the pack, WL's SL's, rotties and a dutchie, she led for the entire 12 miles. I've never tried her in bitework so I don't know if she is capable of earning an IPO title or not. She's soon 8 so I don't see that in her future training schedule. Her sire is an AKC CH UDT and is the first and, as far as I know, the only AM bred AKC CH to ever earn a V rating, a KKL1 and a Sch 3. He is sired by an AKC CH, she is out of an AKC CH dam. Not all ASL's are worthless .

I'm curious, who are the AKC people on this forum who offend you? I didn't know there were many other than Xeph and me and both of us have owned both German and American dogs. My last was a Sch 3, UD, V rated at the BSZS,  import and Xeph just bought a GWL to train for her service dog.

Thank you, Ibrahim. I do understand about the shoulder angle but I still don't understand how the front assembly on the GSL would allow it to be a better mover than say an ASL. I'm not trying to knock the bloodlines as there are faults in all of the bloodlines. But, for the ASL, poor movement is not one of them!

Thus, I'm curious as to the front leg set back in the GSL. It is one of my major pet peeves as I just don't understand WHY it is there. I am trying to follow your logic but in my experience with horses...when their front legs were set under...no matter how much reach they had they could not compete with the stride of a horse whose legs were set on the corners. I have had horses that have their legs set under like the GSL and they extended but the stride was limited due to the placement of front legs. So, I can't understand why that would be desirable? I'm sorry. You did a great job explaining it...as usual! I just have to give your words more thought.

To the other poster, I think there are some really good ASL dogs out there....balanced, moderate, sound in temperament and movement. In fact, I just bred my German dog to one of them! I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. In fact, the ASL line I chose was a result of me watching the dogs herd...all day. They were true working farm dogs and I visited and watched the dogs work. It was not for a competition or sport but for a day to day job. They needed those dogs to work to keep the farm and herd going...moving groups to different areas, separating out for vet or trimming. I bred to the same ASL lines as these dogs and they just happen to descend from one of the most successful ASL conformation dog in our breed. Just sayin'!

I am mostly curious as I have found several GSL that I want to breed too. But, I wonder if the front leg assembly is so dominant a trait as to consistently be passed on regardless of front assembly of bitch. And, I have similar concerns regarding the curvature of back. To those that have crossed bloodlines or types, maybe they can share how strongly these were passed on.

I actually LOVE a lot of GSL traits!! You can't beat the type on a GSL. You won't find a prettier head anywhere in the breed. I love their rich color. I LOVE their coats. I love their sweet temperament...almost took one of the Sieger competitors home as he was just a cuddle bug.. I don't love their front legs or curved back as I still don't understand why they NEED those traits. But, as always, I will go back and retread Ibrahim's post and give it a lot of thought. I will try to keep an open mind and follow his logic...I respect his opinion and regard him highly.

Sarah

 

ASL herding

 

For a valid impression of the GSL's at the BSZS......go to Germany and see these dogs in the flesh! Do not put too much stock in stacked photos only. I read alot of comments on here regarding these dogs and I really have to wonder,how many people expressing their viewpoints(many totally off base....I won't mention names)have ever seen these dogs outside of a picture.

Hi, dshlerner! I agree about seeing in the flesh. I learned a lot from going to Sieger shows and meeting the dogs! Still have my photos with one of the top dogs!! He was older but had influenced a lot of the breeding here. I couldn't travel to Germany but found the Sieger shows here in US to be just as educational......

In fact, I have been very vocal in the ASL world (I own a GWL) encouraging support for the Sieger show. I wrote a letter to the GSDCA Review trying to gather support for all our beloved German Shepherds from every bloodline. Not sure if it will be published but I did put it out on Lists with thousands of members so we shall see.