Civil Dogs and Civil Work - Page 5

Valk,
When you say people actively involved in sport competition just avoid the dogs, are you saying if the dog should happen to direct their aggression on the helper, for example, after he slips the sleeve, the helper just ignores the aggression?

To answer Apples question: No, I don't think "there is a trend" ...

There are some very good trainers, decoys, and handlers out there - those people will make use of given traits;
on the other hand there are some mediocre trainers, decoys, handlers out there - those people won't have a plan B or C- has been like that in the past, is like that in the presence, will be like that in the future.

Because of that it's very important for the owner/handler to learn as fast as possible as much as possible about dog behavior.

After all it's absolutely no problem to teach a civil dog that the "bite" target is the sleeve, but the "bad guy" is the goal.

That's what our top competitors teach - most play/prey driven only dogs will never get the important points on National events - not enough power, not enough aggression...

there definately is a trend, multiple top level trainers I know prefer to work dogs over clean obedience, rather than making use of natural drives, new way of sport training, avoiding mistakes

there is a video on line, with a million or more views with awesome shaping work of a pup that doesnot want to pick up anything, that is turned into a nice apporting pup with clicker shaping

The work is awesome, as is the result, but what do you expect when you breed from this awesome working dog, that he will pass on his shaped behaviour ?

another thing recently happened on a big seminair with big name modern trainer, a woman that payed big bucks for attending got her dog turned back to her with the comment, "we cannot work obedience with your dog, because it has no fooddrive" 

that is not only rude and unprofessional, but shows the status of modern training,

im not saying everybody is like that, or everybody wants dogs like that, but its a given fact that its happening

I had a former WUSV competitor here yesterday, offering his two young dogs for sale , awesome pedigrees you all would die for, but both good for nothing, he was thinking about quitting, he said he didnot know where to go to for his next dog, given the Quality breeding his current dogs where from, with multiple national and WUSV champions in the first generations

I know of one decoy who I believe many would consider a top trainer/decoy of sport/police/military dogs. His philosophy, as with a lot of sport trainers, is to start the dog out very young with rag work, progressing to larger/harder prey objects and then eventually to a sleeve. His belief is that in all this early prey work, the focus should be the sleeve, not the man. I'm pretty sure he believes a dog being civil is much more the results of genetics and that a sport dog highly imprinted on equipment with the right genetics, can easily be trained to be man oriented. The other issue in sports, probably more so in IPO, because grip is so important, is that since dogs are started as young pups often, they come to see the helper as almost a friend they are playing with. But you need an IPO dog to learn to be very proficient in striking and having a full mouthed, calm grip. They are judged on prey more so than fight and defense. I respect the views of Helmut Raiser and his accomplishments. Two things he makes clear in his book "Der Schutzhund" is that, "Personal acquaintance blocks aggression," and "The principal that passive acceptance of the dog's aggression by the helper makes a deep impression on the dog and causes unsureness-the fact that one isn't easily impressed usually leaves a deep impression." His second point about the helper not acting impressed when a dog redirects his aggression on the helper if he is not wearing a sleeve is why I asked Valk the question I did. Compare the approach I outlined to how people typically train a police dog candidate. They usually wait until the dog is about 5-6 months old and then test to see if the dog is driven enough and confident enough to bite a sleeve. Then they will wait until the dog is more mature and the foundation of bite work is different so the dog becomes more man focused and learns there are people out there that can hurt the dog. So you have the element of competition which requires a high degree of precision, and since finding good helpers is so hard in the U.S., there is money to be made by them. Starting dogs out early means more money. Same with seminars. I just read a new article today put out by Jim Engle who talks about the money factor in IPO and the scarcity of skilled helpers. He mentioned one woman saying she had to drive a good distance because she wanted a particularly good helper to work her dog. She drove 20 miles and the helper worked her dog for a beer.

Yes Duke, I think you are saying due to the competitive nature of sport and people becoming much more aware of operant conditioning, often the performance you are seeing is mainly learned and tells you little about a dog's genetics.

apple wrote;

I know of one decoy who I believe many would consider a top trainer/decoy of sport/police/military dogs. His philosophy, as with a lot of sport trainers, is to start the dog out very young with rag work, progressing to larger/harder prey objects and then eventually to a sleeve. His belief is that in all this early prey work, the focus should be the sleeve, not the man. I'm pretty sure he believes a dog being civil is much more the results of genetics and that a sport dog highly imprinted on equipment with the right genetics, can easily be trained to be man oriented

 

I agree with that line of thinking completely,keyword is "right genetics  "

 the problem is however that there are lots of people who think that every dog that will hit a sleeve can be trained to be civil, and that is 100% not the case

Duke,
Based on your comments on the former WUSV competitor who was thinking about quitting because he could not find real GSDs, you support the belief that IPO and its competitive nature is actually harming the breed. Or at least people breeding to the point dogs, which can be confusing to some and denial for others. Logically, one would think that dogs that could win a major national or international IPO competition, would be the cream of the crop, but it really isn't in terms of selecting dogs for breeding for police work. The other aspect, as you pointed out, is the training can cover up a lot of deficiencies in a dog. I am interested in seeing how the relatively new American Politiehund Association will do in the U.S. It is not being promoted very much. Then there is SDA and PSA, but I'm not convinced the exercises are really the best for testing dogs for breed worthiness.

 

Forget all that sport scenarios have nothing to do with real civil work

For civil work you don,t need a gangstah pedigree for what is it worh,, it all have to do with invidual properties and genetics,,,,

Real civil trainers are very rare who understand real civil dogs , Tell me wich big famous kennel
names have real civil dogs and let me see how they train......and where

So if almost nobody of them train them how can we expect any real civil genetics in the breeding program??? Its watering down more and more ,
 

 

instead of using the word "real" I would say well balanced or suitable, and it is not so much IPO sport but more the modern trainingways that are the problem

add to that, that many breeders dont select the best breedingpair/combination, but rather use the male that sells the pups fastest . usually famous/podium dogs

and finally the level of outcrossing limits the predictability of any outcome of any litter .

these three points together are doing the damage IMHO

 

Agree with Duke

The biggest test for charactar temper and courage for GSD is the IPO this the most important
part in the today GSD gene pool  and this is were most GSD breeders do selection....But it have nothing to do with the real world when you need in a scary situation a great civil dog who maybe one day can save your life