I think treat training is cruel. - Page 11

Marker training came about with the advent of training purposes, aka, dolphins and orcas.
Anyone who believes that marker training s simply rewarding a behavior, does not understand what marker training is.

The marker training was so successful in teaching complex behaviors in the aquatic blowhole mammals, that it became Incorporated in training multispecies land mammals including dogs.

Might I respectfully remind Joan (and our younger members who might know no better) that the clicker was chiefly invented for work with dolphins and orcas because of the difficulties in regard to human sounds being made or travelling underwater.
There was nothing new about a short sound, such as the word 'Good' or a tongue click, being used consistently in dog training. This 'marker' was in use for centuries. The inability of some owners to get the timing right, thus finding clickers, once available, easier is what I was talking about in my post several pages ago.

I don't think anyone has been denying that it developed on from that point and proved itself very useful in more complex training, such as 'Doggy Dancing' / 'Heelwork to Music'.

Not sure what this has to do with Prager's overheated assertion about 'cruelty' in food rewards. 

Hundmttur, you don't need to " remind" me of anything.
The marker training is what I'm talking about...they don't have a leash on the aquatic animals that's why they invented the " marker" training.
Doesn't matter if they used a clicker sound or a fire cracker...expediency and consistency for marking is what matters...so no fire crackers used.

 

Might I remind hundmuttr that the aquatic mammals being trained have their heads out of water a great deal of the time, so it's not just transmission of sound through water, it's consistency and expediency that are paramount! A shout can be heard underwater eminating from shore, but its not a consistent sound!

Hans is right. Dolphin trainers just need to pet them.

apple:
My point was that learning principles were not defined, articulated or proven scientifically thousands of years ago.

so what? thousand years ago people did forecast future seasonal weather conditions, without relying on scientific and technological methodology. instead they used wealth of collected observations and logical conclusions.
same approach was applied to deal with animals.

Apple where I am from yes they taught us about conditioning in 6th grade. In the stellar American "scrool' system it may not be so.
Apple and Barefanges Erbe are missing my point. Did you even read my OP? Or did you just read the headline? Since  OP and some subsequent posts may be too long for you, I will simplify for you what I am saying.
Every training - same as everything in life - has a positive and negative aspect to it. EVERYTHING!!! To deny that is a sign that one does not understand basic facts of life. I can use a pinch collar and I can use it in the perfectly humane way yet being accused by food trainer that I am cruel. That is why I have shown that were is jing there must by yang. IN OP and some subsequent posts I have shown how and why training with food works. And I have shown that while on the surface it is foo foo positive there are underlying reasons of survival of the dog which are not that foo foo and they play an important role why the food training works. And they do not feel too good and to force the dog from jing to yang to not feel good just to make it sit is not necessarily just positive. If you choose to deny that then that does not change scientific facts - namely function of insulin and ghrelin hormones which play role in the training.
 

Hundmutter thank you. It could not be said any better.

I am with Baerenfang - think about the word "CRUEL" ...

What are our choices during training?
Petting, praising
Treats
Toys
Yank and crank
E-collars

Dogs are different. Circumstances are different, handlers are different.

Some examples:

Someone who raised his or her own dog is able to make use of different tools than someone who got an adult dog in need of fast success ( I am thinking about police dog handlers f.e.)

A kennel dog / an emotional neglects dog will react to praise and petting more intensely than a housedog, spoiled by the whole family (the spoiled housedog wob't even care about praise).

A prey driven dog will react to toys, whereas a non prey driven dog won't care.

A food driven dog - reread "prey driven"
No need to "starve" this kind of dog, just show him his prefered "goodie".

Yank and crank - I grew up with this kind of training - pretty dumb, but still used in some police training camps, because they need fast success

E-collars - everything from hell to sky, depending on the skills of the handler

Now: What's the GOAL of training?
Just a well behave pet?
A local IPO competitor?
A police dog?
A IPO/KNPV whatever National or International competitor?
A PP dog (whatever the definition...)

Different dogs/temperaments/drives, different agendas, different goals....

I like to make use of the whole tool box.

Shit, I really forgot to mention the "marker training" method.

Any "marker" is a replacement for something else - be it food, toy, or even negative compulsion (yes, it's possible, although not common).
Easy to handle, but not necessary when trained correctly.

I think hundmuttr and the op may not understand what " marker" training is.

Hund, the thought that using food as a motivation for training a dog is cruel to dogs is ludicrous and perhaps the op does not understand what constitutes cruelty.