Schutzhund question: do those dogs need that sleeve? - Page 6

YAP a very very weak dog..... I dont think I have met a weaker one since...

GSDPAck,
I have seen people bring their tough, mean dogs down to the club field and the dog do exactly that when the helper walked up.  The people always thought their dog was so tough because it bit someone in the ass.  They had no idea what a weak fear biter their dog was.   Sometimes it doesn't take much at all.

Jim

Here is a great video showing how temperament and training come into play with police dogs. If you watch you will see a dog who is sent after a fleeing suspect. No real threat. The dog just doesn't have the power to deal even with this. Now, how much of this is training?  No way to know.  Perhaps the dog is sleeve happy due to poor police training and that is why he can't grip the suspect.  Or the dog could just not have "it" for real work when the decoy is not someone who turns and offers a suit sleeve.  Must be maddening for the poor cop!

http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip-fs.aspx?key=5E1E72EAE53841E3&overrideC

bump to a thread about dogs

bump

1.Association:
The main association true PPD needs is the command and some situations. However dogs are great to associate  by all senses.That will usually work against yo in training true PPD.  We must make sure that the dog does not associate by location, equipment (sight or smell), helper, time, movement, sounds, .... By the way I do not believe that the muzzle attack is a definitive indication of the dog's ability  biting for real. It increases intensity of the dog.  But it is an equipment and I have seen dogs who will beat you to death with muzzle and then will not bite hidden sleeve. 

2 Drives
prey drive and defense drive through courage.
Dog needs to be able to bite in both drives. SchH dog will bite usually only in prey.

3.Test PPD
Test your dog needs to.  alert on a still standing strange decoy in strange place  with no equipment.
That is a first step. 
                                          b. then he needs to bite the same.  Use unusual hidden sleeve. We used to use bunch of news papers and duct tape wrapped around the arm. ( At your own risk!!!!! Good luck!)

4. Training .......I was going to talk about training but then I decided against it.
Hire a GOOD trainer.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Prager:

With all do respect I disagree with your statement

quote:
Dog needs to be able to bite in both drives. SchH dog will bite usually only in prey.

I would correct that, that "sport dogs" will usually only bite in prey.

Hello Hans,
I do agree with almost everything that you have mentioned 100%.  I have always said that any fast movement should be prey to a dog.  Even a courage test in SchH should be a prey movement to a dog.  Prey brings speed, speed brings power. 

I will also agree with Bob, sport dogs work totally in prey.  However, a serious SchH dog should be able to switch between prey and defense. 

I believe that muzzle fighting is an excellent way to test a dog and train a dog to fight for real.  We have several techniques to work the dog in a muzzle.  The point Hans makes about testing the dog on a static decoy is crucial.  The other critical point Hans makes is that the hidden sleeve must not be jute, but other materials, an unusual hidden sleeve.  Hans mentions newspaper and duct tape, that is great for a tough decoy.  I just recently got some new excellent hidden sleeve material.  If you are interested PM me and I'll tell you about it. 

Some people here do not understand what it takes to decoy for "real" dogs or Police K9's or PPD's.  On a different thread I mentioned the use of 2 hidden sleeves and slipping one and getting bit in the legs or butt by the good dogs if they didn't transition to the second sleeve and a certain member found that funny.  It's funny because he has no clue what it takes to really work Police K9's in a realistic environment.  

Jim

Slamdunc writes:
"Even a courage test in SchH should be a prey movement to a dog. Prey brings speed, speed brings power."

Just learning and trying to understand what courage test means. 

I presume the above statement is applicable to confidence building for young dogs in schutzhund training which would be the same as what Bob described as sport dogs.  How is it prey movement when a helper is charging at a SchH3 dog in the long courage test?

Gotta respectfully disagree with jim and hans here a moment

Ideallly you want a schutzhund dog that is balanced in drive

Working in prey generally will give a nicer picture so  people tend to work their dogs that way, also it is easier  not to screw a dog up if you are working in prey drive, while working a dog in defense too early can cause problems
 
One way you may see that a dog is more defense driven is when you slip the sleeve if the dog is more concentrated as you as a helper and really could care less about the sleeve

Bob has dog like this, as do several other people that I train with.  Failure to recognize a dog  that works more in defense will probably get you bit as a helper

Jeff

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