Schutzhund question: do those dogs need that sleeve? - Page 3

Bob tell me what is the diffrence in a sport dog and a schutzhund dog i figured sch was a sport was i wrong?

Bob tell me what is the diffrence in a sport dog and a schutzhund dog i figured sch was a sport was i wrong?

I will repeat, if you need to test the dog, it's not a good protection dog.

Any experienced decoy who is experienced in making real dangerous dogs will know THIS ONE WILL BITE SOMEONE FOR REAL, they dont need to test with padded sleeves hidden, or for a police department to spend 15,000 on a dog then have it NOT bite for real......... they know the dog has the nerve and is dangerous enough to want to bite someone the dog takes it that seriously. 

Feather-

and I will say for the record the reaction you get from a dog wearing gear on the field may be extremely reversed without the gear as well as in new scenarios in a different environments. A decoy/helper may say a dog has the potential to take a live bite but they aren't going to tell you with 100% certainty that the dog will take a live bite in any scenario just from catching them on a a sport field.

Every one of my dogs train in real protection scenarios!One is my ppd, and 2 are my up and coming PSA dogs. 
They train in different environments, with different obstacles and scenarios. different gear from suits to hidden sleeves, woods,night,day, concrete, slick wood, padding,carpet, tile, in dark shower rooms with showers on, on trailers, automobiles, indoors,gun fire, police sirens, all weather,  shoot we even hide on sand bags in the back end of tractor trailers with radios blaring and every distraction we can think of to build and test nerve, build and test confidence and environmental soundness, etc...... to ensure our dogs are not just for the field and are ready for any scenario that may present itself. plus its fun and breaks up the monotony of the field and the dogs enjoy it and come out stronger!

Real life scenarios dont always happen when everything is hunky dory on a grass field, thats sunny with the guys they see week in and week out.

My reason for mentioning all of that, is time and time again people bring out there dogs and think they have the "for real" dog as many put it and they fold up when faced with these challenges because they haven't been provided the training needed too ensure a confident, stable dog that can take on any situation. Some dogs will never have it- some just need to see it- and some need to be trained through it. But you dont know where you stand until you test.

there is a lot more to a good ppd or pdk9 than a strong confident bite. environmental soundness, courage, territoriality, nerve, fight, commitment, balanced drives, discrimination etc........ you simply cant tell all of this unless you assess/test it and that doesnt happen on a sport field.

You do not know until you test! period!

Yoshy i think if everybody did test like you we would have a whole lot of great ppd.  That is exactly the way you should test doing the same thing over and over does no good at all and can hurt training.

Schutzhund was a breed worthiness test that became a sport.  I won,t disagree with you that the majority of the dogs you see doing schutzhund won,t ever see real pressure to confirm there worthiness. 

But the idea of what a working dog should be isn,t new to alot of people there are still people who along with trial training expose there dogs to bite suits,hidden sleeves, different scenario,s nite time work,working in parking lots in the woods. empty houses, ect... My male Axel would bite a suit or hidden sleeve loved working in the dark. I,ve got a old car setting in my yard that I,ve tied the dogs in and had strangers do work form out side thew car. After my female that is preparing for her Sch1 gets titled we will also do more work with her. She has already been on a bite suit at a year old.

I still work my dogs on a 7 foot vertical wall, expose them to the old style catch,s have them worked with reed sticks and bamboo and i,m sure there still are many that do.

Just as not all dogs make good Schutzhund dogs not all dogs make good PPD or Police k-9 dogs. They must be tested for ability and character and that is what Schutzhund is supposed to be a test of temperament,ability,character,physical strengths then after the dog shows these traits they can be exposed to more specialized training  such as PPD,Police k_9, ect...



I,ve always felt that Schutzhund is still a training to evaluate the abilities of the dog, and that can,t be done on a trial field alone.   

This is my opinion,

For real personnel protection try a para ordnance p 15 in 45 acp.
I would not ask my dogs to do any thing that I can,t do my self. (no I can,t clear a 7 foot vertical wall on my own).

A "sport dog" is trained that the bitework is a "game" and the dog is having fun because it's trained as "play". The dog knows when he bites he is going to be rewarded with prancing around with his prize sleeve.

[sigh] I wish someone would explain the difference to the people who make the dog laws around here. They classify ANY dog trained in bitework as a 'dangerous dog', and it must wear a muzzle when out in public! 

A "sport dog" is trained that the bitework is a "game" and the dog is having fun because it's trained as "play". The dog knows when he bites he is going to be rewarded with prancing around with his prize sleeve

I don,t believe this is true for all trial dogs either. It depends on how the dog was trainined,Yes some are sleeve happy but some are also taught that the sleeve is only a path to the man. 

Nice post Yoshy!

Here's a little video will go a long way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFkg1DRSqnM  (cut & paste)

This is Mike Diehl and his dog Kutter in a Schutzhund trial. Mike as many know is a K9 officer in Indiana. Kutter is his police dog. Here Kutter is doing the sport, with intensity.  On the street Kutter is bitting for real.

Not all dogs on the Schutzhund field are JUST sport dogs.