USCA Sieger Show - Page 2

In a word, the judging for the entry SchH1 IPO1 If you were in the sport in the time of Rudenauer or before you would know. To name but a few, the way tracks must be laid, the number of restarts. In obedience, there was no wall, dog did not have to come on field off leash, the speed of the retrieve that judges always complain about now, breaking the long down cause one to fail automatically. In protection, dogs could be taken by the collar or leash out of the blind after the hold and bark, if they broke for the attack on handler, it was okay as long as the heeled a few steps before breaking. More leeway for the out. There are many others, which I cannot instantly recall, but if you were there back then, you would know what I am talking about. But even then, it was hard for the average person.

There were a few American bred dogs that scored better than some imports. But let's face a fact. The Germans ARE (generally) NOT going to send us or ANYONE their very best dogs. Can we build on what we get here? Sure.
I do think though, when one speaks of some of the "top" breeder names like Mittlewest, some of this is politics in action my friends. Let's face it. These big breeders spend A LOT of money between judges, USCA, advertising, trial enteries etc. After being there, it's hard to think there isn't an influence.

Klossbruhe,

Some excellent thoughts and observations.

You really hit the nail on the head with your statement; "It is a shame the GSDCA did not tap the people who could have really continued this trend." They had a tremendous opportunity and were made aware of who would be the ones to put in charge. The result was a blend of old and new that worked for the organization politically but the SV side suffered shortly thereafter and the opportunity passed.

I've always been convinced the WDA would have really been done right if Gayle was elected.

I think there are two other factors contributing to participation.

1. Each year the requirements for the breed change. With each change, dogs are excluded. There goes a percentage especially in the 12 to 18 class where you have to have hip and elbow certification to show.

2. We are in the electronic age where we can sit in the comfort of our own home or gathering and watch live stream. Saves a lot of travel, motel, and food costs if you just want to spectate.

Dwindling numbers make it more of a money game. Less participation, fewer VA spots. You have to go up in costs to get a chance at a VA. Little guy is getting squeezed.

For those that are not up to speed. The WUSV came down with a directive to have one National event per country. USCA and the GSDCA complied by alternating their National Events. USCA gets the sieger show on odd years, GSDCA on even. Universal Sieger show and IPO Nationals are given to the other club and they rotate.

WUSV made a bad call. Bad for a number of reasons. First it took 30 to 40K from each club. Second, one show is not enough for a country this big especially when our culture had adapted to having two. We had a check and balance situation. If you didn't like one show, you could go to the other in the same year. If one show was corrupt as we have seen both become at one point in time, you had another. Now we're stuck as there is no other option should that occur. Third, the rules are different enough between the clubs that a dog that is competitive at one show, may not even be in the running at another. That means two years until you can show your GSDCA or USCA dog.

All in all these clubs need to find ways to encourage participation and I'm working on some thoughts.

One that comes to mind is the 3 month old puppy class. We're missing a lot of opportunity here for a couple reasons. The 3 month old puppy is a great age to get the new people and the kids involved. They stand little chance in the class with the 5 and 6 month old dogs but I'll bet if the class is promoted, it will have as many if not more than the 4 to 6 class. It's a class that can get people started who otherwise will have to wait 5 months or 18 months for the next opportunity.

The other is pretty simple and it's just takes a nudge to get it done. Get OFA elbows FCI recognized. Just make it where OFA elbow results are recognized by both clubs and you have bridged a gap.

Barvarian Wagon,

This is a very complex situation and it's a moving target. The problem used to be manageable as there were only one or two conditions. Now there are a bunch of situations. The dike has more leaks than fingers to plug them. They are not big leaks either, little problem here has a few demotivated, another situation and there's a few more over there affected. If i had to come up with a short list on how to get things working as best as they can, here's my top 3.

Quit messing with the rules. Pass one rule that says we can't change the rules for 10 years and then we have to notify you two years in advance of the rule change to allow everyone to incorporate the change into their plans. We have lost a lot of dogs and people to last minute rule changes that affect a dog you 2 2 years invested. It's no fun to invest 2 or 3 years in a dog and find out overnight your time, money, and effort have been wasted to an unforeseen, last minute rule change.

GSDCA, take a look at your SV program and pump some life into it. Start by getting the right people in the right positions. It's going to take an overhaul but it's easy to do. Just go to Cindy and say; Fix it. After that, give her the power to do it. She can turn the ship around if it's not too late.

USCA, Get some representation on the show side of things and let the working side sit back and count the money. We know you're a working club, that's OK. Just get some input from the show side here and there and tweak the program. The USCA Sieger Show is a well run, unpolitical event where you can show your dog and get what you deserve. Just keep picking good judges and tweak the program. For what it's worth I think USCA is very receptive to this and we are going to see some changes.

I come from working lines and USCA so a lot of this is very new to me, but extremely fascinating. I find a lot of value in the show/breed survey part of the SV program and it’s disappointing to me many of the people don’t.

Even though I’m someone who strides for the highest level on the working side, I see how difficult this sport is for the average person. Many are confused to see me training 5-6 days a week if not all 7. Most have maybe 1 or 2 days to commit to this hobby and it’s an extremely tall goal to accomplish when that’s all the time you might have. I’ve also spoken to multiple German trainers and their mentality is extremely different when it comes to the title and our sport. Their goal is to get a dog titled, not really test it. The title is what the person wants, so you do what you have to do. Why? In Germany…a title doesn’t equal a breeding. In America, our trainers/helpers seem hell bent on upholding an imaginary standard that is higher than what the FCI or SV asks for. That high standard has gotten the judging and the test itself to be what it is…which is something very difficult for average people to attain. I think we have the same issues on the working side that you are speaking of on the show side…only the best trainers, with the most money to buy the best dogs, can compete at the highest levels, and that becomes very disheartening for many young people. It’s just incredibly hard to set your goals high and actually achieve them. As stated...it's definitely true, the harder we make it to title dogs...the less dogs we have in the working class...most average people/breeders can't afford or just plain don't want to have to send their dog off to a professional to get the title that allows them into the "only class that matters."

As a start you could ask young American show handlers if they are willing to handle dogs for free, at least in the younger classes.
A lot of "normal" people don´t have an own handler, they are afraid of the costs, and they don´t know where to ask.

Make a list with "free" American handlers prior to the Siegershows, give people the chance to train with them on Wednesday and/or Thursday, not the lists we see on the host pages right now ( professional handlers ).

A lot of teenagers do train the dogs in local clubs or training groups, but all of sudden, whenever there is a Siegershow, they are not good enough for the "big dogs", only good enough for carrying the waterbowls.

A waste of talent

That's because the big dogs bring in top show handlers for the Sieger show and their deep pocketed breeders would like to have them show other people's dogs to offset the costs of bringing them in to show their dogs in the "Golden" class. Unwanted competition.

Just my opinion, but I think there should be a HOT class in the Sieger show for dogs trained and titled in the USA.

Susie
Maybe in Germany a lot of teenagers are doing ring training but not in the US. Yes there have been junior handler seminars at the American Sieger Shows and who attends, mostly the children and high school hirees of the bigger breeders. You do not see young people from local clubs coming out in any number to learn how and local clubs do not seem to worry about or encourage it. I have been a member of an OG in Germany and also one in Austria and I can tell you there is a cultural difference.

The US is never going to be Germany. And as long as the Germans keep bringing over their dogs for the US Sieger Shows so they can win or place high and so long as the likes of the Kotters, Brosiuses and other well known German handlers come over here, things at the Sieger Shows will never change. But though unpleasant, that is not so serious to the future of our sport, The showing is not just the Sieger Show. There must be shows and participation at the local level. And local shows in the US have declined drastically in the last decade. Perhaps we should stop inviting German judges.

If there are to changes, it will be from the grass roots. First off, breeders here will have stop constantly importing German dogs every few months and start developing their own stock. In Argentina and Russia and a few other countries. I have been told by a number of German breeders, (dog salesmen all) including Walter Martin, Erich Orschler and Hans Peter Rieker that the Argentines and the Russians are animal breeders, they understand livestock, bloodlines, geno and phenotype etc. They could and do breed cattle, horses and other livestock. They have Fingerspitzengefuhl. Not so in the US. There is an old joke which goes Jesus Saves, but Moses invests. To paraprhase it, one might say, the Argentines work their stock, the Americans import their stock. Here in the US, the big breeders, the few there are, are living off dogs, and are not animal breeders. It is very doubtful that any could breed livestock. They are in it for the money and do not care about improving the breed. And they know, there is more cache, it is more prestigious to say the father of my litter is a German import Bozo von Dingsda even though he is a V90 dog rather than any American born father. I realize that selling dogs is big deal in Germany, especially at the Siegerschau where you can find gullable Marks in the Midway with their wallets open standing around the field where the Nachkommen groups are queued. Ohne Zweifel, Stephanitz sicher im Grab spinnt.

In sum, it must be at the local club level that young people are encouraged to train dogs for the ring. At our club, a few months before our conformation shows, we encourage all of our members to enter their dogs. We do ring training so that we can show each others, not our own dogs. But how many clubs do that. And sadly, we do not get hardly any new members who are younger than 30. Most are considerably older.

Even so, we must get more ordinary hobbiests into the sport or things will never change.

GSD911
For a few years the WDA did have HOT awards for American bred dogs. One year, I owned the highest placed HOT dog at the Sieger Show whose mother and father (but not grandparents) were born in the US. But he did not get the award. Instead, the dog of a big breeder, whose mother was a German dog living in Germany and bred to a German father also living in Germany who was then flown into the US where she had the litter won. That was the definition of American. A German dog who dropped her litter in the US. There may have been other factors at work such as the fact the US breeder who owned the dog had bought two litters from the judge judging the Sieger Show the year before. (This is common practice and occurs all the time. Judges are announced the year before and the big breeders go to work buying) In any event, the definition of American and HOT were certainly skewed.

But, I would emphasize, the kind of Sieger Show we get will depend on what kind of grass roots support and activity there is. If there is little or none, then the big guys and the rich who can afford the outrageous prices of mediocre German dogs and top level German handlers will dominate the Sieger Show.

Our focus should not be the Sieger Show but local clubs

I would like to comment on this from the American (show line) point of view.

In regards to handling, people are told that they CANNOT handle their own dogs, and that stems from the SV style of showing. You get less new people (in that venue) because they're told "No, I won't sell you a dog. Especially not a GOOD dog if you won't use a handler."

So when it comes to getting dogs, that's one huge issue. Another issue is that the average person has a day job. And children. And those children need to go to school and have after school activities. After they work all day and then have to come home and deal with feeding the kids and what not, the don't want to travel three hours one way to a club on the weekend and spend all day doing dog stuff. 80% of the time they can't do it anyway. There are soccer tourneys, and basketball tourneys, band concerts/parades to get them ready for....they're not going to load up the dog and spend ALL DAY out at club when homework needs to be done. They're not going to get up at 5 AM on their ONE day off to go track with their animals.

The amount of harping I hear about the SV style here in America is frustrating. And I'm someone who WANTS dogs that can do things (just not necessarily IPO). The USA is HUGE. You may have 7 or 8 clubs in Jersey (just pulling out numbers for example), but Jersey is SMALL. You go out to Montana or Wyoming? Watch the tumbleweeds go by. There's nothing out there.

California? There might be "a lot" of clubs...but that club could be 400 miles away from where somebody lives, because California is practically it's own continent in the US. It's freakin' huge. One of my puppy buyer's is going to take a bitch I sold her to her maturity. The show is like a 9 hour drive for her...and it's *still in California*.

I strongly admire those average people who are able to dedicate their time to the SV model. I simultaneously can't and don't want to.

I spent the last 4 days driving back and forth from an AKC show, but on that first day, after driving 2 hours (one way) to the show, I loaded up my dogs and the friends that were with me and we went three hours northwest to herd for the rest of the day. With four different dogs. I worked them all (they were too inexperienced and were fine with me doing their dog) and paid dearly for it. The dogs got worked, but it took an extreme toll on me.

I love doing what I do, but I'm not going to get up at the buttcrack of dawn to lay a track, wait for it to age, and then set the dog to it. Especially not for multiple dogs. I'll get up while the sun is rising and prepare to torment me to work some stock or run in a circle, though. Easier for me to do, and far more accessible.

The most important thing to remember is that it's the SMALL breeders that keep these sports going, not the conglomerates. And if the small breeders can't find the time to compete or feel they can't compete because they don't have the $$$$...they're not gonna do it.