Schutzhund question: do those dogs need that sleeve? - Page 2

 with that said-

in the early-mid development stages what are the main differences between training for ppd/pdk9/etc... and  sport?

just would like to see the differences in opinion--- of those on here.

The question (I believe) is stated with a misconception of what Schutzhund is. Schutzhund was developed to show the dogs trainability and qualities of the dog for further specialized training. The "sport" (what most people call Schutzhund) is a off shoot of the Schutzhund training. Schutzhund dogs should be exposed to all different criteria and situations to evaluate there worthiness for further specialization. Bite suit, hidden sleeves,bite sleeves are all tools to help in the training and further evaluation. 

A good Schutzhund dog is exposed to more then just a trial field. I do agree with Jim on the matter of initial real bites and further exposer to street bites. 





   

If you really want to test your dog, take a trip to Detroit. Walk the dog down the street at night. I bet you get your answer.

So if my dog bites someone on the shoulder or feet or  really anyplace the sleeve isn't she no longer considered dirty shes considered real

Just wondering for my own personal clarification

Yes they need the sleeve and yes it is a game schutzhund dogs are trained to bite the sleeve from the start.  If you want or need a protection dog they are totally diffrent than a schutzhund dog.  And you should start out looking for a ppd not a sport dog and they do need to be tested and not on the mean streets you may get the wrong answer.

Blair:

Again your mixing Schutzhund with sport, there not the same thing.

Habanaro:

                        Thats funny.

@Sam

Are you suggesting a test for whether or not a dog is bullet proof or some other attribute?

Homie be packin', you know.

SteveO

To try to explain this to a newbie can be somewhat confussing I'm sure but I will try to explain it in simple terms without overwhelming you with information that will confuse you even more. :)

A "sport dog" is trained that the bitework is a "game" and the dog is having fun because it's trained as "play". The dog knows when he bites he is going to be rewarded with prancing around with his prize sleeve. 

A PPD dog or Police dog is NOT playing games.  His training style is completely different to condition the dog to react upon a threat with or without being given a command.  THAT dog is coming to hurt you, he is pissed off, he is bringing the fight to protect his handler and self.  There is no shedding of a sleeve to carry back to the truck, it's a REAL MAN in a REAL situation.  It's not "play" to him; it's PERSONAL and it's BUSINESS.

Now this is where you may get confussed...SOME dogs, few dogs can do both sport and PPD or Police. 

If you want to learn more about it there's several threads on here that talk about PPD training vs. Schutzhund.  You can also read up on learning about prey drive and civil drives...if you weed through the BS you will get some valuable information that may help it all come together to make sense.

Most people (who have a clue) who strictly train their dogs for Schutzhund will NOT consider their dogs personal protection dogs.

If they DO consider their dogs PPD's and have never trained on anything other than a SchH sleeve they have a false sense of security.

A SchH trained dog IMO is "more likely" to counter a real or percieved real threat than an un-trained dog, but unless you've specifically trained for personal protection I wouldn't expect them to.

My dog is trained for and competes SchH... but she ALSO has had other training on a bitesuit, hidden sleeve, philly wrap, PSA and Police K9 scenarios, scenarios in low light/darkness...she has never hesitated or not fully commit to the bite.

She hasa pretty clear understanding of when and what to do on a SchH field and when it is "non-schH".  In SchH when the sleeve is slipped she will carry it and make big loop with the sleeve bringing it back to me.
Here's a video of SchH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izhPk3SKa6A ("victory lap" is abt 3min into the video)

In the non-schH training we have slipped a sleeve or suit and immediately sent her back to the decoy for another bite on a hidden sleeve/philly wrap
Here's a video of it (@3min into the video) http://www.youtube.com/gsdfan1#p/a/u/2/_Cszy8h1Ojc

....she never gets a second "civil" bite on a SchH field or when the first bite is on a SchH sleeve, so as long as the helper doesn't keep running it is very clear to her. 

Here the helper kept jogging a little after the slip and she kept an eye on him,  I called her as soon as saw what she was doing but you can see for a second the by-product of her cross training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqyxGm2Bmg

If I needed a true personal protection dog (ie lived in a bad area or owned a business) I would go a step further and do training scenarios at the house or business to thoroughly train her as a PPD.  But I don't need one and do not need a super sharp dog...but am comfortable with her performance in non SchH training that she would counter a real threat if presented with one.

Cross training is not for every dog nor for every handler....I'd recommend committing to one or the other to get the best performance from the dog and certainly wouldn't recommend it for a first time handler.