puppy haveing reaction to puppy shot - Page 5

Heather, have to agree with firethorn--the symptoms that are being seen just don't fit with classic distemper. Did the owner of the other pup give you a copy of any actual test results, and if so, what testing was done, and how soon did it occur after the last distemper vaccination? You just don't typically see distemper infections that manifest with diarrhea as the *only* symptom--you nearly *always* see a thick, yellowish discharge from the eyes and nose; they'll be feverish (103 to 106 degrees) w/in the first week, become anorexic, and may progress to central nervous system signs (specifically convulsions) and develop a hardening of the nose and foot pad leather (which is why the disease was sometimes called 'hardpad'). It takes just 2-5 days from the time of exposure for all lymphoid organs to become infected; by the 9th day, the virus in in the animal's bloodstream and starting it's spread to the respiratory, gastrointestinal, urogenital and central nervous systems. The affected animal sheds the virus for several weeks after all clinical signs disappear. I'm not even so sure that it sounds like parvo, either--sure, there's diarrhea, but there's been no mention of the awful, tell-tale *smell* of parvo diarrhea...and there's no mistaking that stench. I suspect you're still in the middle of a puzzling situation, with the only certain diagnosis so far being that of coccidiosis in the pup that passed, which would certainly indicate that it's on your premises at this stage of the game, and the rest of the pups were also affected. But there's no reason to rid yourself of the chickens--they played no role in this, and are innocent pest-controllers who are doing more good than harm. :) You might have to consider moving your whelping/puppy rearing areas to somewhere else on your premises, though...or set it up on a surface that can be disinfected between litters to eliminate the coccidia from that area. Here's hoping that the rest of the pups sail through all of this.

Heather, have to agree with firethorn--the symptoms that are being seen just don't fit with classic distemper. Did the owner of the other pup give you a copy of any actual test results, and if so, what testing was done, and how soon did it occur after the last distemper vaccination? You just don't typically see distemper infections that manifest with diarrhea as the *only* symptom--you nearly *always* see a thick, yellowish discharge from the eyes and nose; they'll be feverish (103 to 106 degrees) w/in the first week, become anorexic, and may progress to central nervous system signs (specifically convulsions) and develop a hardening of the nose and foot pad leather (which is why the disease was sometimes called 'hardpad'). It takes just 2-5 days from the time of exposure for all lymphoid organs to become infected; by the 9th day, the virus in in the animal's bloodstream and starting it's spread to the respiratory, gastrointestinal, urogenital and central nervous systems. The affected animal sheds the virus for several weeks after all clinical signs disappear. I'm not even so sure that it sounds like parvo, either--sure, there's diarrhea, but there's been no mention of the awful, tell-tale *smell* of parvo diarrhea...and there's no mistaking that stench. I suspect you're still in the middle of a puzzling situation, with the only certain diagnosis so far being that of coccidiosis in the pup that passed, which would certainly indicate that it's on your premises at this stage of the game, and the rest of the pups were also affected. But there's no reason to rid yourself of the chickens--they played no role in this, and are innocent pest-controllers who are doing more good than harm. :) You might have to consider moving your whelping/puppy rearing areas to somewhere else on your premises, though...or set it up on a surface that can be disinfected between litters to eliminate the coccidia from that area. Here's hoping that the rest of the pups sail through all of this.

Hexe, There's absolutely no one in this forum whose insights, experience and views I respect more than yours. It's simply the truth - your last post only underscores how valuable your contributions are. I also agree that a reliable diagnosis cause of Het's problem has yet to be made. But, last I heard anyway, chickens can carry over 200 different diseases, many of which may be transmitted to other species (it's doubtful if medical profession has even fully verified to what extent): 'innocent pest-controllers who are doing more good than harm'! Please!!! I also know other very experienced Breeders who refuse to have any poultry on their premises for that very reason.

The link below describes a very similar incident of suspected distemper in a vaccinated puppy, and gives several explanations of what may have happened. Well worth reading: http://www.vetinfo.com/ddistemper.html#Distemper%20in%20vaccinated%20puppy I really like that site and consult it regularly. Very good info.

well the sick pup that came back yesterday is doing very well today. I have been giving him the IV injections under the skin, Nutra Cal, and albon along with clavamox. He is very perky and even biting at my pant leg..he did eat a little this morning and is drinking. Maybe this is just an extreme case of Cocci???hope hope?? Thanks D.H. this is good information here. I have been reading all morning. Well I am off to the vet. Heather

Ok back from the vet. It is not distemper...it is the cocci. wooohoo... I did ask about the chickens and he said yes they and other wild birds iwll bring it in...but the treatment is albon and just to make sure they are treated. So I think the benifets of the chickens out weight the cocii. Thanks agian to everyone that was helpful, I prob shouldn't have even posted this because now some people think I have serious health problems in my kennel...but this is how I learn...I read ask many question and read some more. Hope this helped others too. Heather

Heather, I for one am glad that you posted this. I am sure many other breeders and owners will benefit from this experience in many ways. For starters most here probably read up on some of the possibilities mentioned here. BTW distemper can also be transferred through racoons, foxes, coyotes so there really is no way to protect yourself other than regular vaccinations and hope the vaccine will take. I had never really looked up the incubation period for it but will now reduce time to see the vet after receiving the pup to 48 hours. I only guarantee against parvo for 24 hours because that is its minimum incubation period. Because of this thread I will discuss incubation times for other diseases more thoroughly with my vet next time I see him. Also first signs, and treatment. The puppy buyers gain from the breeders experience, that is the person they usually call first. I also did not realize that coccidia is such a wide spread problem. From the reactions here many have dealt with it. I think all of the above also makes it more important to press that puppy buyers keep the new pup close to home until vet checked, and insist that that vet check is actually taken care of right away. My contract voids any guarantee if pup is not taken to the vet within that time frame. And probably most importantly - that puppy buyers better go to the vet once too often than not if something seems out of the ordinary. No, Heather, I think this was a very good thread :o). IMO you are dealing with the situation very well. There seems to be this image out there that breeders should have this perfect, sterile, non-contaminating world set up for their pups and that as soon as anything goes wrong, surely it can only be the breeders fault. The obvious is often overlooked, and that is that we are already cheating nature big time. The reason dogs have so many offspring is that nature designed this to include a large "failure" rate. More pups out of any given litter survive than they should. The few losses that do occurr sometimes cannot be helped even with the most effort and care. I have no doubt Heather that you invest the maximum on time, effort and care possible into your litters.

Heather: Another thing that this situation points out that diarrhea in puppies is nothing to take lightly, especially when they are so young. They do not have the reserves like the older dogs do and get dehydrated quickly. This is why coccidea, worms, parvo, distemper etc are so deadly in young pups they allo cause fluid loss either through diarrhea and or vomitting. People should err on the side of caution and take the pup to the vet immediately, especially if the diarrhea is accompanied by not eating and drinking, lethagy, vomitting etc. Even round worms at this stage can be deadly!

I have to say that I did get a couple of emails from others, that said they never would have posted this on a site like this...because of the reaction of some of the people. I have always believed that if we as breeders shared these types of things that we will all be better for it. I had a potential buyer get mad at because I would not sell him a puppy...he called the SPCA on me and when the guy showed up in the morning when I was doing chores, I was very surprised. I stoped him at the gate and made him waite there until I could spray him and his vehical tires befor he came on the property. He didn't understand why I would do this. I had to let him know how Parvo was transmitted!!! and he had 4 other kennels to go to that day...luckly I was the first on the list. but just think if one of them had parvo within a month or so he would have then tracked it to the other kennels...Education is key. I was very shocked that he didn't know how parvo spread. and I passed with flying colors... So Thank you GS MOM and D.H. again you have made me feel good about my dicision and happy that this whole thing has helped not only me but others too. Heather

Heather, great news about having distemper ruled out--what a rush of relief you must have felt on hearing that verdict! :) For clarification's sake, WRT the role the avian species may play in the transmission of coccidiosis (and other diseases) to dogs--while it is certainly true that birds can ingest Isopora canis (the scientific name of the coccidia which will cause clinical disease in dogs) and have it pass through their systems intact, the organism itself IS species-specific, and can ONLY cause disease in dogs. Birds *are* affected by a member of the coccidia family, but again--that organism is species specific, and will only cause disease in the avian host. It's one thing to consider a creature to be a 'carrier', and quite another for it to actually be the cause of a disease in another species. The majority of the diseases that affect birds of various types will not result in illness in a different species that's exposed to them...yet because of their habits and nature, the avian species has increased opportunity to transport an infectious agent or organism from one location to another--the bird serves as the 'delivery service', as it were. But unless one plans on keeping one's dogs indoors at all times, in buildings which are bird-proofed and tended by humans who never, ever step on a bird dropping, there's really no way you're going to avoid the avian species throughout a dog's life. So it really would do no good for Het to get rid of her chickens, because they weren't the culprit--the coccidia is responsible for the illness. The chickens actually can help minimize disease transmission by virtue of their consumption of flies--which carry far more diseases than any chicken can be accused of doing. Bottom line: if one is experiencing a coccidiosis problem, it's because the organism has gotten in the environment of your operation in some fashion. Might have been brought by birds, might have been brought by a visiting dog, may even have been tracked in by you yourself. Get a diagnosis, treat, clean and disinfect, and remember that it is a cyclical creature, and therefore not always detectable in a stool sample, so it's possible for it to be missed if the affected animal isn't actively shedding the oocysts. AND--if you aren't able to disinfect the areas where the affected animal defecates, you'll be seeing reinfection again about ten days after the first bout wanes...so stock up on that bleach or vinegar!