CAN YOU TEACH A DOG TO COMPETITION LEVEL WITHOUT "NEGATIVE" TRAINING? - Page 2

I just thought of something else that's extremely relevant.

I used to visit this lady who had 4 large dogs, and was trying to use only positive training methods. Her dogs had ambsolutely NO respect for my space. They were always crowding me, and putting their heads in my lap and sniffing and drooling on my pants. She'd get mad at me for pushing them away, or speaking to them sharply. It was REALLY, REALLY annoying.

Then, one day, when I put my had out to block her young male dog from coming any closer, he grabbed it in his teeth.

"See what he just did?" I said, "He has ZERO respect for me!"

"Well, of course, he doesn't. You're not his pack leader!"

"No, you're totally missing my point. It's up to YOU, his pack leader, to TEACH him to have respect for people who come into your home!"

That was one of the last times I visited her.

And yes, leaning on someone and crowding them is definitely considered dominance behaviour!  At least that's what I've been told by several people, one of them an expert in herding breed behaviour. Dogs use this sort of behaviour when herding, and anything it's herding is automatically lower on the dominance heirarchy.

I would say no, there MUST be some sort of negative/compulsion AFTER teaching with positive reinforcement. You will have much more reliability this way, and less likely to have your dog blow you off... Which of course they WILL do at a critical time! :-) I would also add that a dog leaning on you DOES not necessarily mean that the dog is being dominant, or attempting to be. I have seen both. I used to have a male rottie with a very dominant personality. He did this as a dominant display. I have a male GSD right now that approaches me ears back, tail wagging, leans all the weight on me and then THUMP! Falls to the ground and rolls on his back for belly rubs! Theresa

   There seems to be some confusion with associating a clicker with only using positive reinforcement. A clicker is used just to mark behaviour, it could be used to mark positive punishment instead of positive reinforcement. everyone that I know that uses a clicker will use positive and negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment. The clicker is used by them to mark positive reinforcement(reward) but the same person will also use electric and or a prong collar to deliver negative reinforcement(removing an aversive when you get the desired behaviour) or positive punishment. I know of no top competition trainers that do not use markers. Cesar is not a competition trainer. You can use a marker for positive punishment by saying no and then delivering a physical correction. You can use a marker for negative punishment(withholding reward) by saying uhuh. I do agree that those that say they use positive reinforcement do not say what type of punishment they use, they mean they only use negative punishment. I will also agree leaning can be dominance, but not always. I guess theoretically you could train a dog for competition using only positive reinforcement and negative punishment, but it would depend on the dog, trainer, and what type of competition. 

Yes but it will take 10 years to title dog and be very unreliable under distraction. Probably less happier in outlook.

  The original post stated a puppy was leaning, pawing, and jumping, I would caution against drawing a conclusion of dominance in this case, contact or care seeking is more than likely the motive in this case. Punishment can be very damaging in this scenario, ignoring the behaviour or redirecting to an action would be more beneficial.

That depends on what you mean by punishment. The 'positive only' brigade believe that pushing the puppy away is punishment.

Defiinitely redirecting is the best way to go, but I would also block the dog from jumping up and give it a firm 'no'.

My original comment to the owner was if the dog was leaning just step back and not allow the behavior. I do this as well with a dog who decides to place his foot on mine. The owner was proud to mention that the puppy was the biggest of the litter (if I remember right) and a temperment to boot. If all failed she could push him away.

My last rescue was a 7 mo english mastiff. Leaning was her thing but pushing was not effective (at well over 100lbs) . I just walked away and over time that worked.

  Thanks for your input Sunsilver, There is a real danger with the crowd that promotes positive reinforcement only. Illegalization of breeds,competitive dog sports, training methods and tools are real possibilities if left unchecked. I believe those that promote positive reinforcement methods are well versed in the use of operant conditioning, they publicly ignore the other aspects to attract customers and as a requirement to belong to certain trade associations and possibly to not encourage newbies from being overzealous in their corrections. I wonder how many follow their own teachings? The OP apparently ran into this line of thought. I do not think we should throw out what they have to offer, they do have success in competition and in rehabilitating problem dogs. The later of these is where there is a fight between Cesar Milan and Ian Dunbar in particular. Has Cesar chosen to dismiss operant conditioning because he has a disagreement with one of it's practitioners? I do not think we should choose sides in this argument, both sides bring legitimate concerns to the table. If we choose sides we lose the knowledge and perspective the other side has to offer. Neither side is complete in what they have to offer. My experience with clicker trainers is with schutzhund and ring sport competitors, they will use food rewards and play but will deliver physical corrections and will use compulsion. They have not dismissed what they have learned from the positive reinforcement pioneers. I myself do not use a clicker but use the yes word as if it were one. You can get some really good results by using positive reinforcement, negative punishment with small puppies, punishment can damage your relationship with a small puppy. Puppies left with their mothers too long can receive too much correction by the bitch and can suffer long term confidence issues.  

If there is anyone out there that can teach a dog to break off an attack after they've been sent without using a correction then I'd like to see it in action.

  I do not think we should choose sides in this argument, both sides bring legitimate concerns to the table. If we choose sides we lose the knowledge and perspective the other side has to offer. Neither side is complete in what they have to offer. 

Well said, Markobytes! In Cesar's book, he interviewed many trainers, (INCLUDING Ian Dunbar!) and most of them said the same thing: they did NOT want to be pigeonholld and limit themselves to using only the one style of training. They always wanted to remain open to learning new things.

Even Cesar has changed his methods dramatically since he started his show, and he now occasionally uses treats. More importantly, he no longer kicks dogs!

I, too, use 'yes' as a marker. And I disagree with those who say you have to constantly TALK to your dog. I am close to being deaf without my hearing aid and cochlear implant, and there are people out there who were born deaf who have never learned how to talk, yet they own hearing ear service dogs, and use sign language or clickers to give them commands.

Dogs don't understand English, so what's with this constant stream of conversation? Repeating commands? It doesn't work!

Okay, I live alone, so I DO talk to my dogs, cuz there's no one else there, but in trainig, I limit what I say, and use my tone of voice to encourage or correct. Sometimes even the dog's name said in a warning tone will be enough to bring them back into line. I used to live in a very quiet area where I could walk my dog off leash at night. If she started to get ahead of me, I just had to say "Tashaaa?" and she'd slow down and drop back to my side.

BTW, the local dog park has a list of rules as long as your arm. Pets are to be spayed/neutered, and choke chains or other collars viewed as 'harsh' by the positive crowd are not allowed. However, there's no one there to enforce the rules, so anything goes.