Why train to have GSD look at you during a Heel? - Page 4

It depends what judge is judging. My dog got critiqued for "bouncing" in his last competition.
Check it out for yourself at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Xg3XPPPfc

If the dog's head is wrapped around your knee, you might get dinged by one judge for crowding and forging.
If your dog's head is up and it is a GSD, you might get dinged by another judge for unatural head position. Of course, if it is a mal, it is allowed since they have longer necks?

To me, heeling is a position. Straight line, no forging, no crowding, if the dog can keep that position without eye contact, fine. I don't care what breed it is, heeling is a position. And I don't care what the rear is doing, since heeling is defined by position. IMO.

Who decides what is natural for a breed? Walking with your head up is unnatural.

Changer,
  Do you know how many points you got dinged?  You looked great out there congrats!!!

If you are showing in AKC OB you will loose a few points for crowding if any part of your dog rests against you in either heel exercise. I show in AKC and SV venues and do not train my dog to lean against me or to stare into the direction of my face/armpit while fussing. I want her to look ahead watching the positioning of my feet from the corner of her eye. In AKC OB you can't give more than one command at the start of the heeling, so repeating the fuss command and jerking on the lead will get you a very big deduction, maybe a DQ from some judges. All AKC heeling must be done on a very loose lead, no short walking leads allowed.

I was at a trial a few months ago and one dog trialing for his IPO1, crowded the handler so badly that the handler tripped and had to maintain his balance 2, 3 times. I don't know how many points he lost for that, but the judge did note it as it happened.

I would be extremely glad if the pendulum does swing the other way again now;  "back in the day" in Obedience circles, when the GSD originally reigned supreme, you used to actually get points knocked off for "leaning on"  (which is what the dog is forced to do when it has to look up at you, rather than looking forward).  That of course was before the Asswipes - who I'm pretty sure had Border Collies  LOL
I know just what is meant by feeling the dog is too close / that you are going to fall over;  have felt this when a friend has allowed me to -work- practise  with his highly successful black&white things.

changer

does not matter what is unnaturel all off the programe of schh is unnaturel and the higher the head gets up looks alot better like this


http://www.mohnwiese-team.de/Sonstige%20Hunde%20Videos/ExanjaB.wmv

you got dinged for "bouncing" ?  looked good to me.

anyway, I agree heeling is a position, that's what it should be and how it should be judged.  I don't care if the dog looks like it's going to sit, if it doesn't and keeps moving in a straightline with you, maintains it thru turns and change of speed and all that, who cares.  If it stares off straight ahead, but maintains the position, who cares.  If it's staring into your eyes of the stars, as long as it's not forging, wrapped, crooked or any of that other stuff, but is in position and maitains it, it should be just fine. 

I think it's just a case of people thinking they are smarter than they are.

I tend to work with whatever style fits the dog.  My older dog does more of a "power heel" but doesn't always have 100% eye contact and compared to a top AKC heel he'd be considered slightly forged and crowding (look up Tom van't Leefdalhoof on YouTube, my dog heels like that), whereas my younger dog is a little flatter (doesn't have the powerful, rolling prance style) but very strong eye contact and more correct position, no forging.  The younger dog was not lured to train eye contact, that's just what he offers me and I'm not going to correct him FOR offering constant focus, especially when his position and reaction to my changes in pace or direction are very precise.  Not all eye contact/focus is something that is manufactured by the handler; many dogs just offer this naturally.  In protection I want the dog looking forward.  Just because a dog shows intense focus during obedience does not mean the dog is not attentive to his surroundings or is going to look ridiculous during the protection phase.

VKGSD - I have two dogs very similar to yours. My Tom grandaughter is the one who constantly focuses on my face and tends to forge/wrap and prance. My other dog, who is younger, has a more correct position and does not crowd or wrap, but does maintain focus beautifully. From day one, the younger dog has never tried to crowd on me. I think the dog itself has a lot to do with the style you're going to get (or how easy it will be to achieve the style you want). 

  I like the dog who naturally focus' up to my face...Konig did it automatically without me doing one thing but he did not crowd..HE was quick to stop when I stopped and was easy to command.

He did not forge or lean into me..

No two dogs are the same so just be blessed to have a dog that wants to follow whatever you choose to train him in.

YR