Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 7

The dog will target a man and not equipment andthat is possible in prey or in defense.

is that means untrained dog, who never have seen equipment, by default cannot be civil?

hans, I am not saying you are teaching BS, do not have credible dogs or knowledge. or that there are no poor examples of poorly chosen and trained dogs in the world.

I am saying that there are thousands and thousands of well trained dogs in the world, protecting lives everyday in the most hostile environments imaginable and anyone claiming to have a "secret" to how all these dogs are successful "is" full of BS.

again, present company excepted,

Rik

Changing dogs from sport to police leads to serious problems. I call such training from spot to police or use sport training methods to train police dogs  "SPORTISM" 

Nowhere do I say that sport trained dogs cannot be turned into LE dogs. That is done all the time. I have done it for decades. My point is that there is a huge baggage which dogs trained that way carry with them for the rest of their lives. 

While sport dog can be trained to be civil, when such dog is then under sufficient stress such dog will revert to what he learned originally ( I call it default) which, in this case, is a sleeve or suit and other equipment.

If you have been training dogs for decades that were started in 'sport' then became LE, were these many dogs not successful, despite their foundation 'sport' training?    Did these dogs not overcome their 'baggage' and 'serious problems' and become effective on the streets?    If the answer is yes, then how do you explain the dog's ability to get past the foundation 'sport' training and target the man while under stress, and not revert to looking for equipment?    

I would say that it is due to GENETICS, and that a dog with the proper genetics and drives will be successful in LE - it is a matter of recognizing and selecting them.    The right dog for the job, with the correct training, will result in an effective K9 no matter if that dog was started in sport.

majority of LE departments relies on private breeders and prefer do not mess with pups but to buy dogs with at least half baked training.
duke somewhere earlier expressed good thought - today's "training got smarter".
unfortunately that smartness seems developing mostly on how to hide/mask dog's genetic flaws and sell those dogs as strong ones, either as producers or for service purposes.
could be that a major reason of failure among LE dogs?

Valk - most dogs acquired for LE are 'green'/tested dogs, and many from brokers, I believe. If this is different, then I hope that Duke or Gustav will correct me. Only a few agencies will use a breeding program - the RCMP is one of those.

I think you have a good point about smart/modern training masking genetic flaws or weaknesses, but under stress those weaknesses will be exposed. To be able to read the dog and see what it has genetically is what a good tester is able to do, and why those people are so valuable, as they save the departments a lot of time and money in selecting the right dog for the work the first time.

I attended a LE police dog trial a few years ago, in the company of a journalist writing an article for a national dog magazine.

one of the LE procurers/trainers said that the suppliers they dealt with took back and replaced dogs that did not work out.

Rik

For those interested, here is another dog that came from a sports background and transitioned to LE.  I worked with Andor from 2005-2008.  He was the last dog I policed with.  He worked with another handler for a couple more years after I left.  He was raised and trained in the sport by a woman in Germany.  He came with papers and a scorebook.  That’s how I was able to communicate with the former owner, ny contacting a dog club listed in his scorebook. 

He was imported by a large kennel in Indiana.  This place would have 100-150 dogs everytime I went up to look for a dog.  I had already tested out about 20 dogs the day before and I’m pretty sure Andor was the first I tested the following morning.  I never knew what kind of training or titles the dog may have until after testing.   I didn’t even know the price.  They send the bill to the my department.  After I select the dog I would go inside the office and tell the kennel owner what dog I selected.  He pulls the dog’s information packet and that’s when I know if he has any titles or any papers, but all the dogs will have the xrays and vet cert from the flight over.  Two of the dogs I trained and worked with had no papers and no tattoos.  Both were green.  Both were good police dogs.  The main advantage I had with a dog who was papered and tattooed is being able to verify the age. 

I cared less about what work was done with him before or what papers he had.  This dog had about a dozen bites.  None were to the forearm, the closest he ever came to biting where he would normally bite the sleeve was one to the bicep, just below the deltoid.  This perp was doing armed robberies at the bank ATMs.  That night he was shot (in the arm) by a swat team sniper, broke his ankle, bit by my dog and tased.  In that order.  Talk about a bad day.  The perp put up one of the better fights.  He kept trying to pry the dogs jaws open and pull his arm out of the his mouth.  Andor just countered each time going deeper and harder (This was the first time I saw him lay down on his chest and tuck his feet under while biting.  Had no idea why, but he did it several times).  You can tell when the yelling starts to hit that panic note and the jail doesnt seem like such a bad idea.  Perp lasted maybe 20 seconds.  He’s eligible for parole in 2029.  This happened in 2007.  22 years in prison to get out of a 20 second bite.   BTW, in training, like every dog I worked with, he carried the sleeve or suit at the end of the exercise. Biting the equipment was just part of a game to him.  That game was so I could control him enough so he would let go of the perp and reliably come back to me.  Perhaps if the suspect would have put on a sleeve he would have bit the forearm area instead of legs (first street bite was to the leg), lat (area on the back just below shoulder), shoulders and that bite on the bicep).  Not all dog's are capable of performing at this level, but if he has it, he has.  

What does a police dog do while not on patrol?  Hangs with the girl scouts!

www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=386121-andor-vom-hause-veronese

Hans,
You said,
"The most damaging to today training are people who feel threatened by other ideas and approaches because they were doing something for x tens of years. They do so because they somehow feel that if they would admit into their program something new that that would mean that they have done it wrong all along before. This is a way of a insecurity. However, to me nobody is perfect and one must learn ALL THE TIME, think critically with open mind and consider other ways.To do something for a long time is not necessarily a virtue nor sign of the quality of the training which one does. Doing something wrong of decades is not a virtue which some use as an argument for the quality of their training. To get stuck on what one does for decades is not necessarily beneficial."

I couldn't agree more! If I was stuck in 1988, not utilizing all assets that the dog brings and available to me, that wouldn't be beneficial.

Thanks for the post of your K9 and his training and street work, emoryg. Interesting behaviour of tucking feet under - maybe protecting them from strike ???

valk:The dog will target a man and not equipment andthat is possible in prey or in defense.

is that means untrained dog, who never have seen equipment, by default cannot be civil?

Hans: of course I am not saying that. An untrained dog can be civil.