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by EuroShepherd on 07 July 2012 - 18:07
Yes Abby, that is another purpose of LB puppy food, but personally I don't bother with LB puppy food.
I wish dog food labels would break down the percentages of the sources where the protein comes from. As in, how much protein is animal based? how much is plant based? how much is synthetic chemical based? (like the infamous melamine) it does make a difference in their usability to the canine body. With feeding raw/homemade, I simply don't have to worry about the sources and usability of nutrients. Raw meat has a very high water weight, a cup of dog food can easily have much higher protein percentage than a cup of raw meat. Fortunately the raw meat has much higher bio-available/usable protein nutrients.
and just like with calcium and other minerals, the canine body is much better at regulating it's protein and fat absorbtion from raw flesh than any other source.
by Abby Normal on 08 July 2012 - 08:07
Euroshepherd
Being a raw feeder as well I don't have to worry about it either!
Being a raw feeder as well I don't have to worry about it either!
by HighDesertGSD on 09 July 2012 - 16:07
"I also want to point out that high protein in puppy food can absolutely cause big problems for a puppy. When a growing pup's body absorbs too much protein it may cause weak pasterns (Carpal Subluxation) and similar issues. High protein puppy foods are also linked to abnormal large growth spurts, lameness (pano) and joint malformations, particularly in giant breeds."
I am interested in reading a few articles on the role of excess protein. The few articels I read point to the contrary. They say that total calories and calcium are the issues, not excessive protein.
First is the percentage of protein; second the total protein intake.
I am interested in reading a few articles on the role of excess protein. The few articels I read point to the contrary. They say that total calories and calcium are the issues, not excessive protein.
First is the percentage of protein; second the total protein intake.
by HighDesertGSD on 09 July 2012 - 16:07
"I wish dog food labels would break down the percentages of the sources where the protein comes from. "
Actually you have a good idea.
Plants with high protein are soy, then corn, then rice (whole not brewers).
If a food is soy and corn free, the protein from plant source is generally low. The usable protein approximates animal protein.
Actually you have a good idea.
Plants with high protein are soy, then corn, then rice (whole not brewers).
If a food is soy and corn free, the protein from plant source is generally low. The usable protein approximates animal protein.
by HighDesertGSD on 09 July 2012 - 16:07
"Raw meat has a very high water weight, a cup of dog food can easily have much higher protein percentage than a cup of raw meat."
You have to feed several cups of lean meat to have the same calories of 1 cup of rich pup food.
The math is easy; one does not have to guess much.
Quite lean looking meat is about 5% fat, 20% protein, and 75% water (leanness ground beef you can buy is 4% fat)
One Cup of dog food is about 100 grams so the math is very easy. about 400 calories for a rich pup food.
100 grams of fresh meat has 5x9 + 20x4 = 125 calories. You need about 320 grams of fresh lean meat to have the calories of 1 cup of food.
Natural meat for dogs is likely much higher in fat than lean meat, say 15 % fat, 20% protein and 65% water.
100 grams of such meat has 15x9 + 20x4 = 260 calories, so about 150 grams of it has about the same calories of 1 cup of dog food.
natural dog food is very high in protein, no doubt. Any claim that high protein causes problem has to overcome this fact.
You have to feed several cups of lean meat to have the same calories of 1 cup of rich pup food.
The math is easy; one does not have to guess much.
Quite lean looking meat is about 5% fat, 20% protein, and 75% water (leanness ground beef you can buy is 4% fat)
One Cup of dog food is about 100 grams so the math is very easy. about 400 calories for a rich pup food.
100 grams of fresh meat has 5x9 + 20x4 = 125 calories. You need about 320 grams of fresh lean meat to have the calories of 1 cup of food.
Natural meat for dogs is likely much higher in fat than lean meat, say 15 % fat, 20% protein and 65% water.
100 grams of such meat has 15x9 + 20x4 = 260 calories, so about 150 grams of it has about the same calories of 1 cup of dog food.
natural dog food is very high in protein, no doubt. Any claim that high protein causes problem has to overcome this fact.
by HighDesertGSD on 09 July 2012 - 17:07
If you take the 15% fat, 20% protein and 75% water and remove much of the water so that the moisture content is 10% as in most kibbles, you will get a protein percentage P. The grams of water is x
x/(15 +20 + x) = 0.1
x= 3.9
P= 20/(15 +20 + 3.9) = 51%.
Percentage Fat is F = 15/ (15+20+ 3.9) = 39%
x/(15 +20 + x) = 0.1
x= 3.9
P= 20/(15 +20 + 3.9) = 51%.
Percentage Fat is F = 15/ (15+20+ 3.9) = 39%
by HighDesertGSD on 09 July 2012 - 17:07
BTW, the "extra lean 5% fat" ground beef is actually 18% fat when dehyrated to 10% moisture.
Beef jerky is very high in fat and protein in percentage. How much of it can you eat?
Beef jerky is very high in fat and protein in percentage. How much of it can you eat?
by HighDesertGSD on 09 July 2012 - 18:07
Natural dog food is very rich in fat and protein and moderate in minerals, but is avaliable in limited quantities.
The whole concept of LB pup food is contrary to nature.
It is better to feed a LB pup rich food and restrict the amounts.
One article suggests 75% of satiation amount, but I just watch the pup so that it is lean. The ribs should be barely unseen or barely seen when the pup turns. They should be easily felt with just light touch.
The whole concept of LB pup food is contrary to nature.
It is better to feed a LB pup rich food and restrict the amounts.
One article suggests 75% of satiation amount, but I just watch the pup so that it is lean. The ribs should be barely unseen or barely seen when the pup turns. They should be easily felt with just light touch.
by HighDesertGSD on 10 July 2012 - 17:07
"Being a raw feeder as well I don't have to worry about it either!"
I think this is too presumptive.
Do you know how much calcium your pup is taking in?
I can guess that one will say "my pup is doing fine". This is not the answer. It might do better still if a different amount of calcium is fed.
Many pups on 1.7% calcium kibble will also do fine, but may not be the best.
The available calcium in intact bone is not well-known because of the physical aggregate.
With kibbles, I know the calcium level is slightly high and I try to reduce it a bit.
I think this is too presumptive.
Do you know how much calcium your pup is taking in?
I can guess that one will say "my pup is doing fine". This is not the answer. It might do better still if a different amount of calcium is fed.
Many pups on 1.7% calcium kibble will also do fine, but may not be the best.
The available calcium in intact bone is not well-known because of the physical aggregate.
With kibbles, I know the calcium level is slightly high and I try to reduce it a bit.
by Abby Normal on 11 July 2012 - 18:07
HighDesert
I 'don't have to worry' because I only have adult/senior dogs. I think you would need to research a great deal to truly get into the nuts and bolts of a raw diet. It is not all 'lean meat and bone'. The variety of different foods and amounts are far ranging. I would leave advice on pups and raw diet to those with routine experience of raising pups on raw.
I am still of the opinion that a diet that mimics a natural diet has got to be better than choosing a prepared diet and tinkering with it to reduce the calcium level. Minerals are present and do not have to be added back in to a raw diet because they have been 'cooked' out in the rendering process. The amount of food when feeding raw required is generally much less because the quality of the food is much higher and does not include fillers and carbs that the dog has no requirement for.
JMO. But, as I said, each will make his own choice based on his own beliefs/research/results.
I 'don't have to worry' because I only have adult/senior dogs. I think you would need to research a great deal to truly get into the nuts and bolts of a raw diet. It is not all 'lean meat and bone'. The variety of different foods and amounts are far ranging. I would leave advice on pups and raw diet to those with routine experience of raising pups on raw.
I am still of the opinion that a diet that mimics a natural diet has got to be better than choosing a prepared diet and tinkering with it to reduce the calcium level. Minerals are present and do not have to be added back in to a raw diet because they have been 'cooked' out in the rendering process. The amount of food when feeding raw required is generally much less because the quality of the food is much higher and does not include fillers and carbs that the dog has no requirement for.
JMO. But, as I said, each will make his own choice based on his own beliefs/research/results.
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