Do you believe in precise calcium/phosporous ratio in dog food? - Page 2

"ASSuming the micronutrients are enough in an adult kibble to feed restricted amounts to a puppy is ASSuming quite a lot, I'm afraid, in many cases. "

Why would you doubt that there is enough micronutrients in regular (richer) pup food when fed the correct amount? I don't

The so-called LB pup food has precisely lower percentage of fats and protein.

If you would think about it, the whole issue of LB pup food DOES NOT make any sense, except if you feed free-choice the damage may be a little less.

The point is that you should NEVER feed free-choice to a large breed pup so LB pup food is never a good thing, should never be necessary or desirable.

To control calcium intake, best is to feed less of a rich food that is rather high in fat, say 18-20% fat.

If you need to feed 3 cups of a food richer in fat or 4 cups of leaner in fat, which will have higher calcium and protein intake? Do the math.

The point is also that total calcium and total calorie intake (never the percentage in food) are more critical that the total protein intake (also regardless of percentage in the food). Natural foof for dogs and pups can be very high in protein as a percentage.


I always choose a regular pup food that is high in fat and protein and lower calcium and feed measured amount for a lean pup. The state of satiation is unnatural for pups, so pups should always act like they are hungry.

Good thread! I will feed raw and use LB Orijen as a meal for training until 6 months then switch to raw fully as usual. Works for me. 

High protein intake per se is NOT the cause of any problem for a pup generally.

But high protein increases taste and can cause a pup on free-choice to eat even more.

High protein is (should be) in general good for a pup because one must NOT feed free-choice.

Total calories and calcium are the factors.

A pup food high in fat precisely allows the careful owner to limit total calcium intake by limiting the total amount of food to achieve leanness in a pup.
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"why would you be limiting their food intake just to reduce the calcium when you can feed a food with the appropriately reduced amount of calcium already"

1. The critcal factors for good devlopment is right degree of leaness on restricted calorie before the pup is usually satiated,  and correct amount of calcium, and enough protein, excess protein not usually a problem.

2. High Calcium is easy and cheap in a kibbles. Most Kibbles have high calcium, higher than ideal even for pups (far more than enough for adults). Calcium comes with ground bone in meat; it is cheaper to Not remove as much bone before grinding. Unless extra effect is used, more protein means more calcium. Some pup food high in protein, say 28% or more, have high calcium, 1.5% or even 1.7%. I like Kirkland pup food, it has a little lower calcium about 1.3%.

In the wild pups have to compete with siblings for enough food. The instinct to gorge themselves can be very high.

In nature, constant supply of food is not expected.

When you combine the gorging instinct with free-choice, there can be problem with excessive calories.

That is why a pup should be on restricted calories intake, but the correct calcium and enough protein most be provided.

Natural dog food is mostly meat and very high in protein. It is hard to imagine how high protein can be a problem; it is not.

I will repeat myself in saying there is no general formular....
if you have an highly active pup in training and, lets say with a high prey drive (and yes, some breeds are generally (exceptions apply) more active than others) it needs more protein as a couch potato pup that only goes for a walk twice a day for 10 minutes on leash (because some people think that pups should be slowed down in their movements...as to some on this forum anyway).

Nature didn't intend for dogs to live on couches, but yet they do sometimes...
Nature didn't intend for dogs to be overweight, but yet they are sometimes...
Nature didn't intend for pups to be confined to a house or a kennel, but yet, they do sometimes...

...so in these cases, the natural food ratio doesn't apply....and in these cases a very high protein is not necessary to say the least.

Calcium is not excreted entirely if not used by the body. Feeding an excessive amount of calcium can lead to kidney failure (in humans as well) in worst cases. In mild cases if leads to constipation. Bone calluses leading to different forms of arthritis can be another side effect.

If you want to read some articles, there is tons of them on the web. I don't support the pet food industry, that's why I'm not posting links for studies that have been designed by them, however I find this veterinary study interesting:
http://www.rivercityvet.com/site/view/165791_CaseStudy.pml#.T_e7GfVB9Gk

Yes, T&T, the bone issue is a huge one that I can't believe people don't give more thought to. I just had an issue with this (and a few other factors) and it is mind-boggling to me that something as obvious as totally improper diet for the lifestyle can be glossed over as a potential partial cause for the problems. Excess calcium is dangerous in many ways. I can't wrap my head around why people can't grasp this concept, and why they insist it's "fine" to feed a LB puppy insane amounts of it and then blame genetics when the puppy suffers from the typical side effects of too much calcium. It seems no one want to take personal responsibility for anything that happens and wants to blame nature. You can't always blame nature and genetics- environment and diet play a huge role. As you said, nature didn't intend for MANY things to happen the way they do with our modern dogs and while I am as naturally-geared as anyone about dog-rearing, it's just common sense that certain things need to be tailored. 

This is a good short article: http://www.vet-iewg.org/joomla/index.php/archive/13-1998-bologna/12-hazewinkel-1998 and below is an excerpt that I find particularly interesting in the face of what seems to be ever-increasing numbers of bad elbows. I've been wondering why, and I can't help but think well-meaning people's feeding practices have something to do with it. Of course there may/will be a genetic predisposition, but as with any polygenic trait, it does not need to exhibit itself if some environmental or dietary conditions are not met. While it's good that dog food is starting to get 'healthier' and people are becoming more aware, these super high calcium grain-free kibbles that are so popular are really concerning when you read things like this: 

Introduction 

The role of nutrition in elbow dysplasia (ED) can be divided in a causative role and a role nutrition can fulfil in promoting or decrease the effects of ED. Here we present some of our own findings of research on these roles of nutrition in ED.

Mineral excess a. A variety of studies in young growing Great Danes has revealed that an excess in calcium intake disturbs the process of endochondral ossification in growth plates and in the growing cartilage of joints. Disturbance of endochondral ossification in growth plates may cause a disturbance in growth in length. Especially in paired bones like the radius and ulna, this might cause problems in the synchronized growth in length of these bones and as a consequence in the congruity of the elbow joint in young Great Danes we have seen severe radius curvus syndrome, characterized by a decreased growth in length of the ulna in comparison with the radius, and as a consequences anincongruity in the elbowjoint (radius too long). In early (< 5 months of age) and severe cases, this incongruity may lead to detachment of the anconeal process, i.e., ununited anconeal process.

This is a short excerpt I found quickly regarding OCD, which is just one issue that can arise and implicates excess calcium in its manifestation: 

Osteochondritis dissecans
Also known as OCD and Osteochondrosis, Osteochondritis dissecans is a developmental bone disease most commonly affecting young, rapidly growing large breeds. It is characterized by a disturbance of endochondral ossification.

The exact cause is unknown; however, rapid growth, over nutrition, excess calcium, trauma and genetics are a few of the influences that have been implicated. The condition can occur in any joint but is most commonly seen in the shoulder, knee or stifle joints.

Clinical signs include lameness, joint pain, joint effusion, and a reluctance to exercise.

Some of these cases will resolve on their own by limiting activity and controlling the discomfort, while others will require surgery in order to remove large cartilage fragments (known as a joint mouse) and to curettage the bone deficit.

In either case, it can take significant time for the condition to be corrected.
 

I also want to point out that high protein in puppy food can absolutely cause big problems for a puppy.  When a growing pup's body absorbs too much protein it may cause weak pasterns (Carpal Subluxation) and similar issues.  High protein puppy foods are also linked to abnormal large growth spurts, lameness (pano) and joint malformations, particularly in giant breeds.