Michael Ellis - Page 2

Thomas, thank you for your response. Zdog, I have no idea what your problem is, I have no idea who you are, I dont really care, however, I am asking questions to see what other's views are in here, not have you or anyone else tell me what the world will do or what my experience is, period.
You do realize, of course, that using a toy with an 8 week old puppy is not intelligent, it takes too long to reward, the puppy forgets what its rewarded about, it has no idea how to "out" and so on and so forth, so, food it is.
No, not every dog out there has high food drives, I have seen plenty that do not. Yes, I like Mr Ellis' ideas, I have used them long before they became vogue. 

Thomas, time contstraints will always be an issue when you train dogs for others and contracts must be filled or else...It is indeed much different when you are training your own dog and can take as much time as you like. Again, thanks for your polite response.

I don't have a problem, you asked a question I answered it.  you seem to think that clear communication is somehow a detriment to training a dog and will only result in more frustration, thus the need for the patience of a saint and will cost trainers money in lost time.  I disagree.  I think any dog that can do a sit, down, stand, heel and recall in 4 weeks thru the generally accepted alternative, is doing it thru pattern and anything outside that pattern and it will not comply with any degree of reliability.  I can train a dog those exercises to the same degree of reliability, most likely better in 4 weeks no problem.  and future training and exercises will be much easier, whereas the generally accepted alternative will make it tougher.  

Now you're trying to tell me you have 8 week old puppies that won't eat?  I have a real hard time believing you.

Zdog, I have no idea where you got the impression of me having an 8 week old puppy, where did I say that? I said that many dogs do not have the food drive to work for food, 8 or 80 weeks.
As far as the rest of what you disagree with, excellent, you train and hold on to your opinions and since you seem to do such a good job of training in such short times, please PM me your info, I will send you every dog that comes my way for training, have a great night!

ahh, you said "

You do realize, of course, that using a toy with an 8 week old puppy is not intelligent,

sorry, for thinking you were talking about an 8 week old puppy.

I like Mr. Ellis teaches and since I am working with a trainer who works the same way it has worked Well for me and my personal dog. We are under no time constraints. And speaking of time, as a consumer I would rather have someone take more time with my dog and know the end result is great reliability and a dog that is happy to work for me than the alternative.

I love his dvd's and they are a big help with marker training which I have been using for years (not with a clicker though I am not that coordinated lol). My 4 month old pups are doing great using his methods (no commands yet love what he says in his food dvd-or maybe his object guard dvd-don't name it until you love it) but they have all of the positions down pat. Our husky that was a rehome had no formal training and (for a husky) has done very well with the methods as well (and has very low food drive-or interest in people drive lol-ME methods can even keep HIM engaged).

WOW I am surprised that many trainers still use the negative re-enforcment and not the positive.

Foundation is everything.  I personally would rather have a dog do things for me because he wants to and not because he is concerned with negatives if he messes up.

I am just starting my public dog basic training, but I have trained many of my own dogs.  All based on positive re-enforcement.  That said, food is not always  the positive.  A good happy scratch to make the dog think   you  think the world of him (just like he thinks of you) does wonders.

Side note:  I have recently discovered a training item called "lickety stik."  This does not fill up a dog like food treats will and I can extend the beginning training sessions longer without the dog starting to ignore me.  I also only use treats for the beginning and work my way to up to a simple "thumbs up."   Body language for a dog is what it is about. 

As my husband says, a quite dog makes a much bigger impact than one that announces he is going to bite.  At least in real life; things might be different in a show ring.

All dogs work better when they have a CLEAR understanding that following commands, offering behavior, brings many good things and that not listening and not following commands bring bad things. I am not sure why this is so difficult for anyone to understand...it applies to everything and everyone, including us humans in everything we do..why should it not apply to our dogs?
While I have no problem teaching behavior using whatever motivation the dog is interested in, I also have no problem teaching the dog that it will be corrected for non compliance and then correcting it. 

As far as real life, what makes a bigger impact is a dog that will put on a good show and possibly have that show be enough so that no one gets hurt and no subsequent lawsuit, but knowing the dog WILL engage if need be, rather then a dog that will simply bite without warning.
Dogs that bite without any warning are often fear biters or dogs with weak temperaments that should not be trained in protection work.

My fault. I did not explain it well. I am not referring to fear biting. I am talking about a dog that will give a firm, but not noisy warning. Again, I know nothing of the shows. Loud and noisy maybe the intent. I work with GSDs in a different manner though. For me, a quiet dog is what I want. Body language is what I train for. My dogs are trained by 3 way; verbal, whistle, and sign/body language . ----------------- I do not mean that any other way is bad. Everyone has their own way. -------------------- Close your eyes though. Imagine the last show you went to. What if the dog did everything as before, but with no sound but a soft yet powerful warning growl. The dog then gave the "intruder" a second to rethink. If the intruder then continued and was met with all teeth. Better yet, what if you could not hear? What experience would you have had at the show? ------------- To me that is a well trained confident dog that knows who he is and does not need to announce it. Again, I am not saying any other way is bad. I just prefer silent but powerful and not noisy and powerful.

Additionally, if I am expecting my dog to protect me in a bad situation, I am not concern with the intruder getting hurt. The intruder's goal is to hurt me....I personally do not care about their feelings or the lawsuit. My only concern is putting a stop to the intrusion by any means necessary.