need advice - nervous aggressive 6 month GSD puppy - Page 2

  See, trixx, THAT I have a HUGE issue with.  Too busy with a litter to get paperwork sent out?  Unless she's actually lying on her side in the whelping box, nursing the pups and licking them clean herself, there's no way that excuse flies.   

C'mon--that's BS and we all know it.  Sadly, too many breeders have an 'out of sight, out of mind' attitude once the check clears and the dog is no longer in their kennel...and that really degrades the efforts theeeder put into acquiring, training and titling well-bred dogs and carefully planning out breedings to produce quality puppies.  

If there's time enough to be posting on Facebook and placing ads for puppies on the web, then there's also plenty of time to get paperwork handled. Yeah, the import papers can be an impediment, but I've always been of the mind that you damn well shouldn't be breeding the dogs before you've got them registered...and if they come over already bred, then there's still sufficient time for the documents to be processed.  As someone else pointed out in a previous thread regarding this breeder and paperwork--funny that the European sellers generally manage to have the paperwork available at the time they ship puppies over here, yet US breeders can't have papers ready for their pups going to US buyers... I just wish the breeder's customer service rose to the same level of quality as her dogs possess.  Too busy to take care of your customers in a timely fashion is too busy to breed yet more litters, IMO....

 

the breeder has been not very responsive. yes i know they have a new litter and a couple more due around this month.  they said that they have been sick which is why they havent timely returned calls.  they dont have much advise except that we should try a trainer.  we have had a few calls from a member of their staff but none from the actual owner.  we pretty much are assuming that we are on our own.   

yes,i can understand that hexe as i know i would never buy a puppy without papers , i dont trust breeders and i have had my share of  rip off breeders.
i did not know this breeder has more litter coming, then i will have to say if she does not send papers work soon then  it is the money no excuse .
if a breeder owns both dogs sire/dam then there should not be any excuse for late AKC papers.

i hope you get your papers.  and that sucks they wont even help you.

we are doing everything possible for the dog.  we are devoting huge amount of daily time with the dog and trying different methods of training, both on our own and with professionals.  we are also hiring a 2nd trainer.  this trainer has a dog pack (like cesar milan) that she will use to try to re-socialize dogs.   we paid the breeder extra for this dog as he was suppose to come partially trained and was suppose to be extra social, especially with kids. we thought buying an older puppy was a more safe bet than a young puppy.

any thoughts as to what is reasonable time to give?   everyone (except the breeder) seems to agree that 3 months more is too long if we aren't able to correct him, as he is going to be a scary 100+lb dog.   we are going to give it a month more and see if he is responsive to our new trainer.   however given our neighborhood and the amount of school children, elderly, dog walkers, bicyclists and that people are already afraid of us and we have been forced to cancel all play dates with our kids at our house, there is definitely a limit.  i also feel bad for the dog. he is clearly in distress. 

thank you again for all the help. we really apprciate it.

mist, how close are you to Flemington/Lambertville area?  I know of an OUTSTANDING trainer in the East Amwell area who I would readily trust with any dog I owned, without a second's worry that my dog would be mishandled, neglected or mistreated either in or out of my sight, and secure in the knowledge that the dog WOULD successfully be reliably and safely trained:

http://www.realk9solutions.com/index.html . 

He trained for the Seeing Eye & Pilot Dogs, presently trains service dogs with Paws for a Cause, and he started his own private training business ten years ago.  He does in-home sessions, as well as board-and-train, which might be the best option for this dog if the breeder is not going to let you return him...if the dog feels overstressed in the home right now, it's going to be difficult to get him relaxed enough to focus so he can learn what's expected of him, whereas in a board-and-train situation, he would be in a more controlled environment and could then be conditioned to relax in more hectic settings.

As for the whether 3 weeks is too soon or 3 months is too long, it depends on the situation.  If you lived out in the country, where things were relatively quiet, and you didn't have small children of your own, as well as their visiting friends, and if the dog was not showing any signs of being under duress and panicked, then yeah, I'd say 3 weeks would likely be a bit early to make a decision.  That's not the case here, and dogs that are stressed and overwhelmed are a HUGE risk to ANYONE who interacts with them--it's not a risk I'd be comfortable suggesting someone in your setting continue on with...most dogs probably would have slid on in to your family and lifestyle with little trouble, but clearly that is NOT this dog, not at this time, and he doesn't need to be pressured into a situation where he finally bites someone or some dog because he can't see any other way to cope. 

And WRT to breeder's excuses to you, mist, well, I'm sure you've already noticed that they are the EXACT same ones given to raylind a few months' back when he'd been waiting for 4 months for his dog's registration papers... The excuses elicit no sympathy from me, because it still comes back to the fact that the breeder has time to *produce additional litters*, post on Facebook, advertise additional litters, and hell, even make the trip from NY to NJ to *deliver* puppies--they damn well can get their act together and have the papers for the buyer BEFORE they cash the check.  If life interferes so much with getting that part of the business done, then they shouldn't BE breeding more litters.

Perhaps you could try backing off of this pup a little bit and giving him a chance to get familiar with his new surroundings and bond with you, at least a couple of weeks. He surely must be missing his old home and is waiting for them to come get him. He is a puppy and does not understand that he has come to live with you. You are a stranger to him and he does not know where he is. Why wouldn't he feel insecure? 

we backed off tremendously after 1st 3-4 days.   originally we were operating under the theory that puppies need lots of exposure and socialization.  we were walking him constantly all over the town, including more trafficked areas like the library/school. 

i think that's why he is so hard. you have to push him a bit but just enough to not tip him towards more fearful aggressive behavior.
we went to taking him a shorter route and going the exact same route every time, hoping that we could build and gradually expand on it.  soemtimes we will feel like he is improving but the next day, he would revert or get worse again.   we will also sit with him for short periods in our front yard and he does seem to like it there, but he will go off on neighbors, lawn services, and passerbys.  it feels like we are working against his natural state.  i have taken in lots of dogs but have never seen one that doesn't want to go on walks. we are on the 4 week with him.

thank you all for taking time for our problem.

best regards.

It is really difficult to provide advice without directly observing the situation but based on what you have written, I'm in agreement with Falkosmom. I think you are expecting too much, too soon from this particular dog. I also think you are expecting behavior from a GSD that needs to be taught - not all GSDs have the personality of a golden retriever. I understand your previous dog was "perfect" for you but you may be remembering the trained adult dog and not recalling the path you took to end up there.

I live in the middle of a very busy downtown city neighbourhood; my house is less than a block from a busy public school (so think swarms of little kids running screaming by my house at 8 AM and 2:30 PM every day). I bought my female GSD at a little over 5 months old and she had never left the farm she was raised on (zero socialization). I just let her investigate things at her own pace and never forced her to do or meet anyone or anything. I understood that we had picked her up and dropped her into a completely strange world without communicating to her what was going on in way that she could understand. Initially, she didn't want to leave our yard but as our bond with her grew, she got more confident. We also worked hard on the watch command so that she knew to look at me if she felt uncertain or if I needed to change her focus on something. After 3 weeks, I took her to a very busy park for an hour every day and just sat there and let her observe things from a safe distance. After two weeks of doing this, she quickly got used to strange dogs, rollerbladers, crowds of people, trains roaring by, etc.

I also have a 5 month old GSD male pup (bought at 10 weeks old); he is a working line GSD who is the complete opposite of my female GSD. He will never like strange dogs or people- he'll never be the dog who enjoys being petted by strangers. He will always be ready to rumble the second there is an opportunity. At ten weeks old, he made this very clear- barking "aggressively" at strange dogs, hackles raised when people walked by us and heaven forbid a stranger was stupid enough to try to pet him despite my clear warning. I was initially worried but I was reminded by other GSD folks that (a) he is not Senta (my female) and (b) to re-read the temperament description in the CKC breed standard for the GSD.

He's now 5 months old and has learned the behavior that is expected from him (ie. he was trained). He knows he's not allowed to bark at strange dogs or people squeezing by us on the sidewalk. At red lights, he has to sit and make eye contact with me- no matter if we are surrounded by a crowd of dog walkers. My point is that it took me about eight weeks to teach him the behavior I wanted him to exhibit. I found Susan Garrett's crate games video and parts of her Ruff Love book to be very helpful in teaching him self-control and that there are consequences for his choices (all taught in a fun and motivational way).

I will also note that I take both dogs to obedience classes taught by a good trainer and that I will do so for a few YEARS. I choose to live in a downtown neighbourhood with GSDs so I'm responsible for ensuring that I have solid on and off-leash control over them. That it is also a really fun way to interact with my dogs is just a bonus.

I don't think mist has done anything wrong, sounds like s/he's done everything right.  If I paid extra for an older puppy supposedly trained, socialized, and already proven to be good with kids I'd expect that dog to bust out of the crate and leap into my arms and try to lick everyone to death at 6 months old.  Yes there is an adjustment as far as bonding and more formal training, but IMO temperament is temperament.  A good dog with sound nerves and the social type temperament the OP was expecting to receive with their purchase should have been evident within days or even hours.  A PUPPY that acts this aggressive and fearful of everything is just not right.  GSD puppies should want to love and play and explore everything!  The OP could probably work through a lot of it and manage the rest but is that really fair considering what they asked from the breeder and were told they were getting? I think not.  Personally I would return the dog especially because it sounds like several children are involved.  If it were just me and I had fallen for the dog I'd probably try to work with it but when there are family and kids involved you have to put everyone's safety first.  Kids cannot and should not be expected to deal with the responsibility of managing such a fearful dog.

I agree, VKGSDs!  I adopted a slightly older pup at 12 weeks. When I was checking her out, she climbed into my lap, and licked my face.

She was a little shy with children at first, due to lack of exposure, but a couple of trips to the local park, where I let the kids give her treats solved that in a hurry!

NO WAY is this pup's behaviour normal!