Why? - Page 4

"I was referring to conformation lines. To my knowledge, there is no black GSD, " I have been trying to find a black pup from conformation lines just to show up at shows to annoy the SV judges that dislike them so much. I know of a few lines that carry the black gene but I haven't found anyone that is producing it. You mentioned Wanko, a guy in my club has a really nice looking bitch out of a Wanko daughter bred to Xito. But he wouldn't sell her to me. She went SG3 ahead of a number of black/tan dogs in the young dog class a few years back. "I heard from somebody that Mr. Messler once said that if anybody will enter a nice black male he will put him up, too. " Actually, Mr Messler did do this. I believe it was the 1998 Seiger show. Mr Messler moved the dog up to his rightful position with the V dogs. Ahead of a number of other black/tan dogs. Including one that in a different year went VA at the USCA seiger show. The black dog was the one I mentioned. Gringo Phillipsburg. He was a handsome dog, pedigree was mixed conformation and working. Ed

Ok - we get back to the basic problem of the "split" in the breed. Before teh Martin brothers went on a divergent "black and red road" to make the breed a cookie cutter look alike, there were no "high" lines or "working" lines. VA dogs are prolific in the pedigrees of many working dogs. I have a retired female line bred on Mutz P. She has Frie Gugge in her pedigree too. My black dog, Kougar, has Mutz and Marko in his pedigree. Several well known, lesser known show trainers, SV judges and Koermesiters have all agreed he is a V in size, type, structure and movement. Just like the highline people, training for the opposite interest is not easily come by, but I do plan on getting some assistance and getting him a Koer. V Xito v d Maineiche,Schh3, KKL1 is coming on 11 years old. I hope to have 2 more litters from him one way or another in the next year or so. Saw him in September, took a role of film, and a current photo is on my website where Xito has his own page [with his owners' blessing! and acknowledged!] Xito goes back to Marko Cellarland in a direct sire line. Is he working or show? He is considered working, but his pedigree has a foundation based on balance in working and structure with VA and V dogs in both work [BSP]and show [Siegershau]. I have a sable pup. He was seen by a show trainer at 9 weeks and I was advised he had excellent conformation. At 5 months, another show trainer saw him. I was asked if he was a Champ Dakota. No, he is workign lines, Orry v h Antverpa and Ufo Guy's Hof with Xento Maineiche - ie Marko - way back there. I tried to update his photo to one taken in a show stack, but it has not shown up yet. Blitzen and Silbersee, I will be glad to send you photos if you email me of Xito, Kougar and Danger...Blacks are hard to photograph, but I have managed to get some really nice head shots of Kougar and Xito - NOT small headed dogs! Although I never saw Gringo in person, I was very impressed by him

ooopppppsss.... Gringo - V in 3 countries, including Germany! Gus and I talked often and I was waiting for him to get a good working female so I could have a Gringo puppy. Unfortunately he did not breed too many females, and Gus was only able to acquire a daughter of his after losing Gringo at much too young an age.

Thanks, Kougar, I'd like to see those photos, I'll be in touch privately.

After all this endless input v( thanx for it all) my questuion still remains.. however it is my understanding that the GSD is primarily a working dog and that is what it shud be bred for.. I personally prefer the regal look of the showlines but i can in no way undermine the defiant and towering look of the working lines. but i guess that this debate will go on till the end of time.But it sometimnes pains me to see the grosslyexaggerated angualtions on some dogs n the showring and i just wonder that just this seems like torture. Franly i love the angulations in Erasmus and Larus. But i wud finish on one last note .... Whatever happens to any sable or black pup thats born into show parenst do they just get shipped off for working or do they go off to compete in their parents class. this i gotta see Fida

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/395570.html

http://www.johnsonhaus.com/zeno.htm He will show and Kore this winter. I had to bring the prick I purchased him from to court. I finally after four months got him served and got my papers and $$$$ for lost stud services. it cost me all a full year of time (his 3yr old prime year at that). Look for us at all the up coming trials we are hard at work making up for a lost year!!!! If you want Buyer Beware Info email me I will not post it here!!!!

Brittany wrote: "http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/395570.html" That is a false pedigree/picture. First off, the z Pohranicni straze kennel doesn't breed WGR working lines, their breedings are usually out of one of their brood bitches (which carry their kennel name). Second, that picture is of a showline dog.

Blitzen, you are welcome to visit my dogs and facility anytime. I am near Carlisle in central PA. contact me privately if you like.

Mike, are you serious? Geeze I cant trust this "so called" awesome website anymore :(