Show vs Working lines? - Page 2

I havent owned working lines.. i will some day tho. I used to train with my male a couple of years ago at a working line facility and i just loved watching them.. naturally we didnt come close to their drives but then i got my 2 german show line bitches i have now, whose drives and nerve are not any less than the working lines... that i worked with and saw each week. perhaps lucky, i dont know... but both of my females are very high drive, very focused, in tune, dont tire... can go on and on etc... but i cant compare them fully to a working line as i havent lived or owned one yet. just do alot of research, on every line you can. I hear Dux della valcuvia produces some very strong working show lines, naturally Quartz dei Templari, there are sooo many i cant even think to name each... but ask around here, you will find out :) Regards, Dawnmarie

I have had both show and working lines, and I have worked many. There is hardly a comparison between the overall desire to work, and fighting drive. The working dogs, in general, especially are so much better than show dogs when you are messing with their natural drives to get precision required in higher competitions. I think you can breed good looking working dogs: I try to. But the way I define "good looking" is very different than what the show judges are looking for. I hate banana backs, overangulation, weak jaws, weak hindquarters, or structure just based on effortless gaiting. I think in real life, the dogs have to do lot more than just trot. I have heard many people talk about high drive, but it is like taste, if you haven't experienced it, you can't gauge it. Bodo vom haus Tyson is the best working dog I have seen out of show lines, but I have seen many working dogs better. But I think the working dog people should try to produce better looking dogs. Ajay Singh www.ajaysingh.com

There are a great number of tasks to which the German Shepherd Dog is well suited.Question: what is working ability being defined as here? It would seem to a novice like myself that the only important criterion for this bred is to bite. I was always under the impression that the GSD was supposed to be able to do m any things..am I wrong in that understanding? Also,remember that just because a dog bites and bites and bites that this alone does not necessarily make it a good working dog. There are many conformation dogs that produce very god working ability (Fedor v. Arminius , Cliff v. Huhnegrab, Amigo v. Belgier,etc...) come to mind immediately. How many working dogs produce their 'drives' AS WELL AS excellent conformation? Any takers on that one? IMVHO it also seems that the best working dogs that we see at the BSP are also in the hands of connsumate trainers (Heinz Balonier , Fritz Beuhler,etc...) although I am sure that this has nothing to do with their amazing performances,right? Bottom line - decide what it is that you want to do with your dog and research the bloodlines on either side of the coin (working vs. show/combo) and try to acquire the best specimen that meets your decided upon criteria and do your part (training,socialization,etc...)to bring out the best in the dog. Even the most promising prospect from two outstanding parents will not live up to it's potential in the wrong hands regardless of it's genetic endowement.

Is it kosher to cross the lines? I have seen them stay so separate in all the pedigree's that I've seen that I was under the impression it was frowned upon. ALPHAPUP I would like to see what your crosses look like, please e-mail me pics if you have the time Mbecker1@ptd.net. SAOA, funny you mentioned Kirschental, my girls' granddam on her sire's side is a Kirschental bitch. Grandsire on the dam's side is from Leerburg. Her drives are a carbon copy of him. Unfortunately much of her pedigree is not up to par (newbie). Since everyone has been asking my intentions (after learning all I can about the breed) I plan to try my hand in SchH. I have been competing in AKC obedience (now in open A), and am very interested in starting in SchH. Unfortunately I am unable to find a SchH club closer that 1 1/2 hours away from me, and do not have the time or money to travel that far (right now) to title a dog that I cannot breed. Of corse there is much to learn, I am in no rush and plan to do so. Thank you all for your imput.

GSDfan, Check this out,I am a die hard working dog person.I am NOT saying that show people do not put effort into what they do.here is one of my working/showlines A very sound dog,fantastic in the house,swims in the pool with the kids and his bite work is just fine.This is about as close as I dare go myself to showlines.He has both form and function. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/328980.html

Another thing,people have different opinions on what a working dog is,Just because a dog has a SchH titles does not mean it is a PPdog. Really think hard what and where you want to go with your purchase.It will possibly save you thousands of dollars and much heartache in the long run

I have seen quite a few show line dogs work, and trial. I know an Ulk Arlett grandson from Karat's, untitled, that can go up against a *decent* working dog any day. Unfortunatley, he is owned by a 70+ year old man and was never titled, just trained a bit for fun. I have seen some very high profile bred young dogs that have been very pathetic to watch, seeing that the breed's innate desire to work is so diluted that the dogs cannot perform even the most simple controlled exercise of running 2 blinds and still sustain their drives. And I have seen some which have been quite respectable, but they would be on the average of a low to medium drive workign dog. I feel many breeders are blind to what they are producing, and prioritze the various aspects of conformation, coat, color and pigment far too highly over decent drives. At the same time, I have seen young showline dogs with great play/toy/ball drive who enjoy training in motivation. However, whenever obedience or control is demanded, pure obedience or obedience in the exercises is added, the willingness to do the work seems to deflate and the dog just goes flat. One young show handler, who has titled several dogs, visited our club one day last summer and was amazed at the DESIRE of the working dogs to go on the field, the control we demanded and the continued desire even with the control. Her comment was "you guys all are having FUN out there!" She was both envious and amazed at how willing and eager the dogs were to go on the field and work. Yet she has handled in shows and titled dogs and never seen this same high level of desire. I agree with Ajaye - I think working line dogs can be bred with correct functional structure and be attractive. That is my goal as well. I prefer the athletic grace of a nice working dog over the fashionable trotting machines. The choice you make as to what your next dog should be is one that should be based on the individuals available to you, your situation, and your goals. While some are breeding crossed types, and many are sucessful, it is a roll of the dice which genetics are present and I would think uniformity in any aspect - whether it be color or fight drive - in such a litter is much less likely.

Always a touchy subject but I'm going to have to agree with Jason and Diane. If you like the appearance of show line dogs and the hardness and drive typically associated with working lines, you should consider Indo's progeny. You can contact his owners at www.vomhausstronje.com

I have had american lines, german show lines (mixed with Kirschental) and now working lines (mixed with Kirschental). I have had an awesome american line bitch but that is very rare. My male from german show (eros, cello) and Kirschental is outstanding in drives. I combined him with a working line female and this produced awesome pups (3 are certified bomb dogs , 1 is certified narcotic dog). My girl is the best combination of drives, team work, biddablity etc. She now has a litter out of a working line male and these pups are outstanding in thier drives, grips, intenstity, ball focus etc. All are going to working or active pet homes. In addition, I have worked MANY gsd's from all the different lines in herding. I have some really nice dogs from all lines. The 'best' thus far are the dogs from working lines that are from parents with balanced drives and not too 'sport' oriented. Bred for real work (police, SAR, etc)Some sport dogs are sometimes off the wall in the prey drive and I need a more balanced dog for herding). I have worked many german show lines and I have seen and worked some nice dogs but generally speaking thier drives are not as intense and they are not as focused. It really can depend though. I also *think* at times....that a german show line breeder will keep the pup with the best "conformation" and the 'best' drives....and this is not always the dog with the best drives period. We will see about this present working line litter. I am thinking of keeping one for myself and herding. Just can't decide who at this point.

I should mention that the dam of the pups who is german working line mostly also has fantastic conformation. In fact, if you can believe it has a Best of Breed at a CKC Conformation show. She got this at 8 months of age. I only entered her in the show to get into the building 'legally' as she was entered in a herding trial the next day and I was helping set up etc. It is NOT often that a judge would put up a dog with minimal rear angulation and I was very surprised. Her temperament is incredible compared to the other dogs entered...and maybe that was part of it however, she also went on to get Best Puppy in Group and was 5th (out of 11) dogs entered for Best in Group (not puppy). She is not even as angled as many german show line dogs are and she has a straight back with no roach. In my opinion what a gsd should look like.