Constantly itchy...skin allergies - Page 4

Wow!  I am overwhelmed in a very good way.  Thank you, TIG, for your detailed posts.  I am going to read them again and do a lot of thinking that is also taking into consideration what everyone else has posted here for me to read and think about.

I will double-check the labels, but I am leaning towards Natures Variety Instinct LID Rabbit Meal Formula.  It has 25% protein, peas instead of potatoes or sweet potatoes.  Any feedback on that is welcomed.

I do suspect my dog could be leaning towards EPI, although at his healthy weight of 80 pounds, I think that he doesn't have a clinical case but he benefits greatly from the digestive enzymes I do add to his food.

Here's a photo...

Arrgh had a lovely post all ready to submit and apparently  hit the wrong key and poof away it went inot the ether never to be found again.

Zen handsome boy. He looks in great shape.

Re skin problems. The skin is actually an organ. The body's largest. Many in the alternative medicine world believe that skin problems are the bodies way of trying to rid itself of toxins or of the result in an inbalance caused by nutritional insufficiencies, infection or disease.

If you choose to try systemic support not medical intervention there is one important thing to understand. I was told and found it to be true in both dogs that I have treated for skin issues. It WILL get worse before it gets better. Its like the body's last gasp to throw everything out that's casuing it a problem. It is very very hard to hold the course then even believing that the long term result will be better. In fact most people give up and go running back to the vet for some prednisone and before they know it they are back on the hamster wheel again. Prednisone is a very toxic drug- but it does give some short term relief. That is why it is given because it makes the client (you) think something has been done to help the dog not knowing the long term disasterous effects of steroids. Plus because steroids are like a match to gasoline with a bacterial infection it actually starts you once again on the wheel of bacteria, yeast, fungal infections followed by antibiotics, antifungals and steroids.

I am not suggesting that you give up on a medical approach. That is a decision for you and your dog to make. We as a community have not seen your dog and do not know the exact nature of his problem. We can only offer information based on what we believe to be similar problems we have seen or treated in the past. His problem may in fact not be similar. In addition we all bring to the equation our own combinations of skills, talents, resources in terms of what we can do or not, financial resources or the lack thereof and location as it affects availability to other resources. Thus the direction each of us goes for similiar problem is unique to us.

What I would like to offer you some suggestions that fall into the category of might help won't hurt. A category I have often used  because what do you have to lose.It can offer support to dog with problems and may even if you are lucky resolve the problem. While I believe nothing I will suggest should interfere with any medical treatment, it is important tho that you let your vet know what you are doing and any supplementation or treatments your dog gets just in case there might be a conflict.

First diet. I get it why you don't want to try raw right now. In fact whatever problem he has may have impacted on his reaction to raw. If you do get to a point in his life with trying raw start w/ some smaller supplemental meals of things like chicken gizzards, hearts or feet or beef heart or ground chicken which are easier to process. Avoid necks too fatty, Also check out greentripe.com .

So your first decision is whether you go dry, canned (btw there is a canned tripe and dogs love it) or home cooked or some combination or rotation of that. I suggest a rotation as it prevents the body from being acclimated or reactive to a food. Next make sure any food you get is flax free. It is easy way to eliminate a known allergan. Canida, Evo and Nutrisource offer SOME products w/o flax.  Read the labels. The Blue Buffalo recommended above has flax combined with very low fat levels. In the 50+ years I have had GSDs I have found very few dog foods that offered sufficient fat levels and even with a high quality food found that some level of supplementation is needed.   You need high protein, high fat. If your dog is not used to the high fat this may have to be a stepping stone process for example starting out at 12% moving to a food at 15% for awhile and then 18 etc. You may want to try alternative proteins initially such as duck  or fish just as a little extra insurance initially that the food is unlikely to offer a contributing cause tho again I'm not sure what the problem with beef is. Avoid elk or deer - it has to be farm raised meat because of the volume needed and these farmed ruminants have a very high degree of wasting disease - mad cow. Obviously find a food with no wheat corn or soy- known allergans. But be careful with the whole "no grain" screaming match that is going on. Most companies simple replace those grains with another carbohydrate such as peas, potato or quinoa and to some degree to the body a carb is a carb. Evo is the one company that I have found that on there website they actually indicate the % of carb in their foods.

Once you have decided on the food  there are some basic supplements I would recommend. Some to be used only temporarily like enzymes and some for life like fish oil. See the next post

BTW re food. Avoid at all costs any of the "veterinary" formulas especially anything by Science Diet. The only ones who benefit from them are the vets and dog food companies. Also you may want to check this out  http://http://www.k9criticalcare.com/pet-food/petmix-homemade-dog-food/ 

Question have you had his thyroid checked? Make sure it is a full panel including the TSH. Use Michigan or Jean Dodds only. Even if normal some dogs and people are borderline and a short course of supplementation helps their bodies. Old time vets who are not so hidebound and treat the dog not the test seem to be more open to this approach.

I was going to suggest you use some enzymes temporarily just to help his body process the food better but I see you already are. May I ask what kind and amount? I used just a pinch -literally with Nemo. enzymes are a 2 edged sword. Too much or too little and you get diarehha. I also recommend Viokase  - the powder which allows you to fine tune the amount. Its very costly but the best of the enzymes. You may be able to get someone from this board or one of the epi boards to sell you just abit since they often buy in bulk at a discount. If the skin problem resolves overtime you may be able to reduce or eliminate the enzymes.

Next I would add fish oil ( Costco $6-8 for bottle of 400). This is a fat so start with one a day with a meal. My dogs love them and will eat them out of my hand or thrown in the food. If he tolerates it move to 1 am 1 pm. Greater supplementation will depend on the dog and how he is doing. For most dogs 1 to 2 a day is sufficient. I would also add one 400 mg Vit E capsule. Again my dogs just eat them. Make sure it is natural vit e (Nature Made Costco) as most vit e is actually synthesized from kerosene. Because this is a skin issue for right now supplementation with selenium and zinc is important and some level of support may have to remain in the long term or during flares. BTW for Nemo biotin made him worse not better. Don't know why. That's why if at all possible only add one new thing a week so you can get some idea if it's a problem or not. Selenium and zinc are very well documented in the literature to help BUT both can be toxic if supplemented at too high a level. Selenium no more than 200 mcg a day and you may want to start lower by only giving every other day initially. They now have selenium products combined w vit c and citrus bioflavanoids. I highly recommend that. Zinc 50 mg a day. Some new products combine the zinc with calcium, magnesium and d3 which is great especially because of the magnesium which is essential for so many body systems but be careful some of these combos do not offer sufficient zinc. All the supplements I recommend are available for humans and as such are available at at places like Costco, pharmacies,health food stores, grocery stores and online ( ex Puritan,Swanson). Look for made in usa ( not China, lord knows what might be in it) and high quality and reliability (check consumer reports some cheaper supplements have little to none of the claimed substance). Also be aware of serving size. the cheaper bottle might require you to give 3 pills to achieve a 50 mg dosage while another brand one pill will do that. Because of the impact on Nemo's skin issues I would also suggest adding some Coq10 and/or Ubinquinol(Costco again) to his diet. 100 mg . I would start with the Ubiquinol since it is more bioavail but my research suggest the best route is to use both so I do one am and the other pm. Finally I would suggest finding and using ( at least temporarily and especially during and after any antibiotic use) a good quality probiotic. Nutramax offers one just for dogs as do several other companies whose links I will give later but this is available everywhere including feed and grain stores. Look in the ruminant section. One reasonably priced one in powder form which is easy to add to food is Probios. Once again, be very leary of dog supplements that claim to add fat or omegas or help skin problems. Almost all of them have flax as a major ingredient. To me this is the basic supplementation to start with. Lots of words but comes down to this - fish oil, vit e, selenium, zinc, coq10, a probiotic and possibly magnesium. Oh and go to your vet and get a bottle of Pet Tabs. good quality chewable multivite.

Secondary level of supplementation for your consideration. If you can afford it I would highly recommend a product called Tonic Blend that I used on Mike the dog I mentioned above. It is available from Springtime supplements a very good company to deal with that offers supps for dog, human and horse.Plus it's owned by a GSD person.Tonic Blend dosage is based on weight. If you can afford the "best" level go for it but at least try for the "good" level. http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/tonic-blend  Tho I like their other products I would not recommend either the Longevity or Fresh factors right now for your dog because they are yeast based. Also order a catalog. Their system of 2 for one PLUS bonus product depending on monetary value of the order is easier to understand in print than on the web.Finally  I would also suggest adding colostrum to the mix. There is good evidence that it offers immune system support. Once again available health food stores, Feed and grain ( ruminants again) and on the web. On the web you will often see it as "transfer factor" which I believe is simply a more concentrated version.

There are a number of companies that offer some or all of the supplements I have suggested designed specifically for dogs and often in combinations  or chewable wafers to make for easier dosing. I have not used these products (except for some of the Nutramax ones) finding it more cost effective to put together my own combos. However they may offer an easier solution for many so here are some links to get you started,  http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/  http://www.k9criticalcare.com/k9-trans-factor-plus/    http://www.k9criticalcare.com/daily-nutritional-supplements/  and http://www.k9medicinals.com/pet-products/dog-immunity-supplements/k9-transfer-factor  http://www.k9medicinals.com/pet-products/digestive-support  Many of the big dog or horse product catalogs such ashttp://www.kvsupply.com/home also offer these. By the way kudos to Nutramax and KV Supply for their support of iaadp members (an organization http://www.iaadp.org for those partnered with assistance dogs) with product gifts and discounts.

Final post I promise. Next is what you do about the itching and scratching. Limited bathing. Baths are an area where less is often more. It is quite possible to dry out and kill a coat with too many baths that destroy the natural oils but if you have seboreahha (sp) going on or a staph infection or fungal then baths are needed to start with. Fungals need to be treated for the most part with prescription meds and heavy duty rubber gloves tho there are some horse shampoos that claim to also treat fungus and do a pretty good job. For more general or bacterial problems there are several excellent vet prescribed shampoos but I would suggest trying a couple of other things first.  I am a great fan of T-Gel shampoo and Selsun Blue - both OTC products. Some folks will use head and shoulders rather than the Selsun Blue. Tar/sulfer based shampoos have been used successfully to treat human skin issues for hundreds of years. Why re-invent the wheel? Generally I would do a cleaning shampoo first with a gentle shampoo and a second shampoo with the treating shampoo. If possible let it sit for several minutes.

For soothing relief you can use oatmeal shampoos or hot packs if the area is limited. There are both prescription and non-prescription products available. Ask your friends mom and grandmoms what they used for skin problems and posion ivy. Many of those old time remedies work wonderfully such as baking soda baths ( google it). Tea ( plain old lipton kind not tea tee oil wh/ is used differently) makes a soothing rinse to ease the itches. Sometimes plain old white vinegar  or a dilution of it works. For small areas just starting up I would suggest you try using a procudt called Micacle Mist http://www.livewellmedical.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1534  or  http://www.woundcarespray.com/. Some health food stores or local chiropractic offices may carry it as well. If not see if you can strike a deal for them to try it and get you a lower price. It deserves its name and should be in everyone's first aid kit. It is bactericidal and anti fungal and safe enough to spray in your eye. If you or the dog gets a wound of any kind this will help it heal fast and quick. We found out about it from the quad community who found it would heal decubitus ( bed sores) which are notoriously hard to heal and dangerous.  Great stuff can not say enough about it. It is now available both in a spray and gel. I warn you it looks like nothing - it looks like water actually but it works!  Product info here http://healthylifeandtimes.com/MiracleMistPlusSpray.html  

How I came to use tea baths (wh I had forgotten was an old and good remedy) was due to my dogs habit of cooling his jets on the top step of the swimming pool. He was not a swimmer but liked to lie on the top step in high heat. Lo and behold his skin yuckies that got soaked went away. Told my vet and asked if he had any clue about the chlorine dilution I would need so I could bath him in the stuff. After jokingly sayig how the h*ll would I know ask the pool man, we decided that it would be kinder to his skin to use the old tried and true tea baths.

Don't forget the sun is essential to good skin health. Mr. couch potato Nemo grumps when is forced marched outside for his morning sun bath but it helps the body make vitamin d and a bunch of other good things. Good quality exercise is essential. The best if you can find it is a place where they can just run free ( I'm not a fan of dog parks that brings stressors into the picture). There is nothing more beautiful than watching a GSD or a horse just running free in a field. Great for the immune system. If not available go back to something like Sch if he enjoys it. For a dog who loves the work as opposed to tolerates it, it can be a great immune boost.

Last but not least understand that this is a slow process. His system has been out of whack for quite some time and it will take time to get it back in balance. This is usuallly not an overnight or quick fix. But do know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Something I have not addressed that perhaps someone else has greater experience with can speak to is the use of herbal and homeopathic products. I do know they work having used arnica for pain and Red Earth Nature's Ear Oil ( another for the first aid kit. Health food store or web). Plus many of the old time remedies are herbal in nature.

Good luck and keep us posted. 

PS One thing I forgot. Quercetin is a bioflavonoid that reduces inflammation in the mast cells. Has been very effective used w/ human allergies. You need at least 500 mg a day probably 1000mg.  possibly more -added advantage it also inhibits cancer cell growth. Found in health food stores or on the web.  Again falls into that won't hurt might help category. I recommended it to a friend with horrible multiple allergies to growing things and we live in an agricultural valley. She told me recently that this spring was the first time she could actually enjoy being out in her garden, that it had significantly reduced her symptoms.

TIG,

Awesome posts.... with a wealth of information. Thanks for taking the time to type that.

I just wanted to comment on the OATMEAL SHAMPOOS. If your dog has a yeast issue I personally would not use the oatmeal. As oatmeal is a grain and yeast feeds off of that. I would use a tea tree based shampoo personally.

Thank you Jyl.

Just hope it might be a resource for people struggling with these issues. I wish we could somehow make a sticky with it because yes it took awhile to type espcially at the rate I do it. I think I'm going to cut and paste it into a word doc and save for future reference.

Yes, truly a wealth of information in those posts, TIG.  Thank you for all the time you took to type all this up for me and everyone else on this forum.  I need to re-read and process all this advice.  I will keep everyone posted as to our progress.  A big thank you to all of you who have responded.  There is a wealth of knowledge in all these posts, and that was one of my intentions for starting this post.  I know I can't be othe only one out here with an itchy dog, but by sharing information our dogs are sure to benefit.

This is a very informative thread. Now you have views from both sides of the fence, the first- see-a -dermatologist side and the first-try-the-natural-approach side.

 I hate to sound like a broken record, but even if you find a way to break the itch-scratch cycle without medical intervention,  your dog's immune system is most likely still flawed and he or she is  probably not a good breeding risk. This would include dogs with food intolerances as well as atopy. It may be prudent to do some research on sibs, and first and second degree relatives to determine it others have suffered from atopy or food intolerance. No one wants to think that their beloved dog is flawed and not breeding material, but it's the right thing to do.

I've been involved in the diagnoses and treatment of many atopic dogs and it's not uncommon for some of these dogs to go on to develop other issues like lupus, chronic bacterial infections, hypothyroidism and/or and one of the leukemias, so you may want to include those diseases in your research.

The dermatoligist I saw years ago with an itchy/chewing girl told me if you are trying to clear the system of something they are allergic to, whether it be antibiotics/food/environmental allergens for all those toxins to clear out of the systems takes a minimum of 6 weeks. That would include any new changes you make to the system whether it be food changes unless diaherria is present would take a while to see if it is working unless they start itching right away.  Really did not realize the impact of something like this until years later.  Really is a serious problem and not to be taken lightly.  To find the culprit is the key and it can be more than one thing which is the really frustrating part of it all.  Good luck  with your dog,  Nan

Thank you TIG for your most valuable information.  Nan